S04E05 Transcript: Jacqueline Hurst on Social Anxiety

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Gemma Styles [00:00:02] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where I welcome our guests to discuss their experiences, answer your questions and teach us something You. This week we're talking about social anxiety. Why so many of us feel we struggle in social situations. How our thoughts can become feelings starting to let go of our fear of what other people think. So joining me this week is Jacqueline Hurst. Jacqueline is a leading life coach, author, speaker and GQ magazine's resident coach and columnist. She works one on one with coaching clients, as well as providing an online coaching platform called The Life Class. Her book, How to Do You The Life-Changing Art of Mastering Your Thoughts and Taking Control of Your Life is a practical guide to help people understand themselves as well as a personal story about overcoming anxiety and addiction.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:00:56] So if you're scaring yourself with your thinking before you walk out that door, the only person this evening you're ruining is your own.

Gemma Styles [00:01:08] I will start by saying social anxiety is probably the most requested topic for a podcast episode, but I think we've ever had. And I think it also might be like the most questions that I've had some in front of episode. Why, Jacqueline, are we all struggling so much with feeling anxious in social situations?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:01:31] It's such a big question. It could take me an hour to answer that question because there's so many different facades to the answer. I think there's so many different things. Like, first of all, most of us are communicating now online and we're not communicating face to face. That's like Mark one. We've had COVID, so we've had a couple of years of being in and also disconnecting from people. Number two and number three, it's a really big thing about mental health and what's actually happening in people's minds before they walk out the door and interacting with people. So there's a sort of my top three, as I said, I could give you loads more, but I think there's three things. Probably the most important about why people are really struggling when it comes to social anxiety.

Gemma Styles [00:02:15] Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's quite, it makes me quite sad. But also it's, it's quite, it's quite nice in a very weird kind of morbid way to know. But, you know, there are a lot of people who struggle with this particular thing. So as much as it's not nice for people to go through those, a lot of people are feeling the same way, which I kind of, yeah, in an odd way makes me feel better about it.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:02:39] Yeah, I think that makes sense. It's like most things, you know, when people realise that they are not the only ones struggling with that particular problem, it is almost like your shoulders can drop in. You think, Gosh, a case is not only me. And that's quite a comforting thing. I mean, if I had my way, nobody would be struggling with it and we would all be laughing about how to use our mind correctly so that we don't have those sorts of feelings when it comes to, you know, socialising. But yeah, of course if you are struggling with something as with anything, you know, that's why a lot of these groups walk off like a and a and all these sorts of things of people coming together and having support within each other, knowing that they all struggle with, you know, something similar. You know, we all think that we all think, oh God, it's only me that thinks this. I must be crazy. Maybe I'm not quite normal, but we understand lots of people struggle with the same problem. Then, you know, it already starts to ease that sort of anxiety itself around having anxiety, you know?

Gemma Styles [00:03:35] So from when I've even just kind of like, looked up social anxiety as a term when I've been researching this episode, it seems like a lot of what it comes down to, if you were to really boil it down, is a fear of being judged. Do you think is that something that you would agree with from the work that you do?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:03:55] Again, this is such a big topic because that's one thing, right? A fair thing judged for me. It's all about which I'm sure I'm going to say many times during this episode is very much about what's going on in our minds. And until we're really clear about what we're actually thinking, it's where you hard to start to change how we feel. Mm hmm. So social anxiety, you know, and again, I want to say this, Gemma, I've got to put this out there sort of at the beginning, which is like we've got to be really careful about Naples. We've got to be really careful about what we say that we have, because when we do that to ourselves, we often live accordingly. And we put this label on ourselves to keep ourselves small, and then we use that as a reason to stay small. Right. Like, I have obsession, anxiety, so I can't go out. But when we start to change that and understand, you know more about our mind and what we're thinking that's creating that, we can start to unravel that. And then social anxiety is not a thing or unable to live up to, I guess.

Gemma Styles [00:04:51] Yeah, I think that's an important point as well because. It's obviously we're talking. Kind of quite generally, I guess I want to say something about like that feeling of being anxious either in or coming up to a social situation. It might be that you have that experience as part of a kind of diagnosable anxiety disorder or condition or something, and it might not be. So I guess what we're kind of going to talk today about, I'm thinking is. Kind of more of the practicality and some sort of thought processes there. And it might be that, yes, you have a kind of diagnosed anxiety disorder, but it might not be. And as you say, I think it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to label yourself as. A person with X, Y, Z sort of condition because you're experiencing this. Some people will find that helpful and that will be your experience. But it doesn't have to be, I think is what you're saying.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:05:53] That's exactly what I'm saying. And I think we must also be really careful about how we, you know, get these diagnoses. Says in quotes. I've worked with loads of people that have come to me and said, you know, I've been diagnosed with anxiety and I've been given these pills. And I'm like, What? Because I and this is a controversial right. A lot of people may not agree with that, but I believe that how we think generates how we feel. So our feelings come from our thinking. So when we learn to change our thinking, we learn to change our feelings. And I say this alone. The anxiety is not something that you have. It's something you create in your minds. And that annoys a lot of people because they're like, No, it's not true. But actually working together means we start to find out what's happening in your minds. Where we start to slow things down and really understand what's going on in our minds in order to find out what we're thinking that's generating these feelings of anxiety. If you're stepping out your front door and you've got thoughts in your brain which are like, I don't want to go to this place, people aren't going to like me, you know, I'm not going to fit in. These things are those that are happening in your head. And of course, they're going to generate really scary feelings. Feelings are in your body. Our emotions, right? We're most physical. And that that thinking is going to push you into that negative feeling. When we learn how to use our mind, we start to learn how to think differently, which is not. You know, for me, it's never been like positive thinking. Like, let's just say this to ourselves and it will all be better because that to me never works. But if I can find different ways to think that I really believe to be true, I can then start to find a much calmer feeling for myself and then I can walk out the front door. So I think that's why I say be careful about labelling yourself with, in quotes, anxiety because it's coming from your mind and we just answer all this stuff at school, you know?

Gemma Styles [00:07:50] Yeah, I mean, I find that like, I don't know exactly where I would fall there either, because I think as someone who. Has experienced it quite a lot. I think it's quite a difficult thing to kind of. To take on board. It's a funny thing to sort of accept and say like, Oh, well, the idea that you're kind of doing it to yourself because I think it's and this is the kind of work that I'd done in therapy a few years ago around anxiety as well. And you do like the practice of sort of looking at your own thoughts in a kind of pattern and being able to sort of label the kind of thoughts I was having and then what feelings that was giving me physically and my body I found really useful. But I think making the jump from kind of. I don't know because. Because it makes sense what you say. But at the time, obviously, when it's something that's so difficult to struggle with, it's hard to think of it as something that you're consciously thinking.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:08:51] Oh, of course it is. And what you did in therapy was amazing. But that's only half the work. Right. Half the work is that which is a real struggle to get there in the first place. Like, I saw the stuff you said it was like a lot. And all of that is really important because step one of all of this stuff is awareness consciousness, right? Which we are not to write. This isn't about like sending out and sitting with your, you know, legs crossed and sitting and meditation for 15 hours. It's just about starting to say like, what am I thinking here? And it's slowing down the process. So sorcery, like, you go halfway there, which is amazing. And then next step is being taught how to change your thinking. Right. Which is the key. That's what I call in quotes, the work of like, you know, and I get that a lot with many clients. They come out and they're like, I know I do this thing and how do I change it? And that's very stuff. Ed Right. Of like teaching you how to do that part, which is the most beautiful work. And again, you know, we must do this, Why? With compassion and kindness, right? Because it's really easy. You know, I think I was listening to an Eckhart Tolle audio book once, like years ago, and he was talking about how, you know, he was giving this talk and that there would be one person in the room that was like, But I don't agree with what Eckhart just said. And then they sat there for like the whole talk, just being, like, frustrated, annoyed because this one thing he said, that was it and they missed the rest of the show. And I just think that's really how our brains work, unless we manage that right, like how ego steps in. It's like, No, that is not true. I have got this problem and that is the way it is. Unless we're open minded, it's very hard to like, step forward. Right. But all of this work, as I say, compassionate kindness, gentleness towards ourselves and just an open mindedness of like, oh, okay. So maybe that's, you know, more I could lead a more I can do and whatever wrong, whatever wrong. It's just a journey.

Gemma Styles [00:10:50] Yeah. Okay. So I don't know if this is going to be an easy thing to to kind of answer on a general basis, but say you had a client you were working with and they'd got to that point of realising they were having these kind of anxious thoughts about socialising. How do you start to kind of move on from witnessing what those thoughts are to actually getting yourself kind of out of that cycle about?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:11:15] So the first thing as as I said, is to become aware of the thinking. Once you've got that, then you have tools to understand yourself. So even if we say, right, let's just start with one tool, which is my thoughts generally how I feel, right? Even if that's basic and we don't do you know, the top and the bottom to that? We ask ourselves the question, which is a really important question, like, do I want to feel anxious? We understand that our thoughts generate our feelings. We then realise we have a choice as to how we feel. This isn't for everything. I don't want people to, like, jump on that guy. Yeah, but if my dog died, are you saying I have a choice? Because that would be weird, right? Of course you don't. But there are things in your life that you have got choices over, and anxiety can be one of them. Right. So if my thoughts are generating my feelings. And I don't want to feel that feeling. The only place that feeling is coming from is my thinking. Hmm. And people get confused. They think that their feelings come from the situation that they were in. And it's never that. It's what we're thinking about the situation. Right. And our thoughts are really powerful. I can choose to think about this problem this way. Or I can choose to think about this problem that way. And either of those is my decision. When I'm in control of my mind, like I always say to our minds, very much like a puppy dog. And it's very much like, you know, I think if you've got a puppy. But if you've ever had.

Gemma Styles [00:12:43] It, not.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:12:44] Okay. But if you ever had a party, you realise that like that crazy. I was going to swear that, But I won't. I'll keep my language. Today they are. They're like, They're over here. They're over that robot, Hitler over that. And that's like our brains. Our minds are like walking a million miles to the minute. But when we say to the puppy, What? I'm going to teach this puppy one thing over the next month, which is how to set we're training that puppy. And so what today? And that's what we've got to do with our brain. I've got to train my brain into thinking differently and to really working hard to finding different ways to think, to make me feel better. So if I if I step outside, like I was saying earlier, before I step outside the front door, if you've got social anxiety, you need to be aware of what you're thinking. Let's say you have a thought, which is like, No one's going to like me. Mm hmm. And that makes you feel anxious. You want to also self. Is there a different way I can think about this before I step outside my front door? Now, you can, of course, go. No, there's no other way I can think about it. It's just this. In which case I'm going to say, Well, have fun then. Like, enjoy a party. But if you push yourself and say, Right, I've got to find a different way because I don't want to walk out of my door feeling anxious, how can I think about this differently? What would I say to a friend of mine, etc., etc.? You can start to unravel that and you could say, I don't know if people don't like me. It's, you know, it's it could be doubtful that people might not like me. I might meet some people that might like me and I might like that. And then you start your process and you just go gently, very gently, very slowly.

Gemma Styles [00:14:21] I think. I mean, that's an interesting example, and it's one that I have heard you talk about before, actually, and I think it was on Alex and Adam's podcast who have haven't been on this podcast before. We all like to mix it all. Another but kind of that idea of people not liking you, I think really comes into play here because I think that probably is a lot of what the worry is for a lot of people when you're going out and meeting people. I feel like you have always got some quite interesting things to say about that kind of thing, which I've definitely I've listened to I've listened to you talk about, you know, the idea of being liked before and kind of. It's the fact that it was the phrase that you're saying. You know, it's not really any of my business whether somebody likes me just a little bit about that idea, because that's something that I've personally found really insightful.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:15:20] Well, I think it isn't my business of whether you like me or you don't. And I also think I can't control. Mm. So if you do your thinking in your head from your brain and I do my thinking in my head for my brain, the only thing I can control is my thinking. I can't control your thinking. Mm hmm. So I think the first thing is today that I can't control it, which, to me, makes me feel quite relieved that I don't have to go out there and try and be a person that, you know, controls your thinking. Because I have it. Because that is impossible.

Gemma Styles [00:15:55] Mm hmm.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:15:56] So that's to me, like the fact you was like, Oh, okay, that's good. And second of all, which is why I teach my clients a lot and talk about a lot you would have hired me to look at, which is like, fundamentally what you think of me. Is so. How do I put it in the nicest way possible. Let me put it to you this way. What I think of me is far more important to me than what you think of me. If I can go to bed at night and put my head on the pillow and think that I've done the best I can in that day. Right. And it might not be perfect, but I haven't gone out of my way to harm people. Beware of people, like, actively going out there to create disruption and pain, and then I can put my head in the pillow and say, You know what, Jaclyn? Yeah. Good day, right? Like, that's.

Gemma Styles [00:16:41] Cool.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:16:42] That's very important. So I can sleep easy with that. I cannot sleep easy worrying about what you're thinking because I can't control it anyway. So when people struggle with my code, I really care what other people think of me. I really like to deep dive with them into the why. Like, why that's so important to you? To care so much about what other people think. You know, Madonna was an interesting one recently. I'm sure you would have seen it. And she was presenting the Grammys. And, you know, that was as always with our media. Some read article about her face or something and she was like, you know, talking about, oh, you know, you guys have completely missed the fact that I've, you know, presented this award. I think it was the fact transwomen at the Grammys, this is such a massive milestone for us. And yet some random is just talking about my face. Right. And I've always suffered she said you know misogyny and ageism about blah, blah, blah, blah. She's like a perfect role model, right? She just doesn't care. She just goes out there and she does what she does. And she knows people are going to have that, you know, opinions. And I think that, you know, we must allow other people to have their opinions. Right. You are an out a lot to not like me. Right. You're allowed to know like me. But here's the key, Gemma, which is a lot I've gotten like a long winded way this this is about self esteem and self-worth. This problem is about self-esteem and self-worth. Because if you have a very high self-esteem and you have very strong self-worth, you couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of you. So that's the work we've got to look at. If we're struggling with. I care too much what people say.

Gemma Styles [00:18:22] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. A lot of sense indeed. And yeah, I did see that story about Madonna. And yeah, it was just I mean, it's just the fact the. She even had to, you know, come out and say, Why are people talking about my face? You should be talking about it. I mean, it's all just is one of those examples where you're like, well, why are we doing this? Why are we like this? But also, yeah, the kind of thing of the people who are making judgements on that basis. Are they people whose opinion we should be worried about because it's just not right, is it?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:18:57] Yeah. I mean, let people have their opinions, right? I mean, everyone is allowed their own opinion and they're allowed to have different opinions from us. Right? Like, it's okay that we have different opinions. What's not okay is like literally shaking people and saying, you know, this is my opinion and you should do it this way, cause that's not fair. We wouldn't want it done back to us either. But you also remember, we live in this crazy westernised society with, like, you know, all that stuff in the Daily Mail and, you know, this one's perfect and that one skin's amazing. And this one's, you know, is the best bar in the world.

Gemma Styles [00:19:31] And, you.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:19:32] Know, and it's, and it's, and it's there to, to, to feed in to people's insecurities. But if you think about it different is say, well, what would happen if, you know we we all had a high strong self-esteem and strong self-worth that people wouldn't be going.

Gemma Styles [00:19:47] Mhm. Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, that's probably quite true. So, I mean, how could we go about kind of, let's assume from the situation that we haven't all started off in a place where we've got good self-esteem and, you know, self-worth is up there. If you have found yourself in a place where you aren't happy with the level of self esteem that you're living with and you want to make a change to where is where can we start a sort of as individuals, maybe without access to a life coach or therapist, How can we actually start doing that work ourselves?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:20:29] This generation has got so much more than I definitely had. I started my journey when I was 25 and I got clean and from my drug addiction and all the things that I suffered with. And for me when I was going through my journey that was literally read a book today, there is so much stuff out there to help people. There is YouTube high, you've got audiobooks, you've got things like this, podcasts, right? And anything to do with like how you just literally Google, how do I get better self esteem, what do I need to do to get better self-worth? And there is a myriad of information out there. But here's the kicker, right? We can read the stuff and watch this stuff all day long, but what we've got to do is actually do it. Yeah. So we've actually got to zip it, right?

Gemma Styles [00:21:16] Yeah, I guess. Importantly, though, I suppose it's like believing that you can change that and can change those thought processes because I guess if you're kind of in the mindset of, well, this is just how I am and I'm not going to be able to, you know, fix this without something really radical happening, then maybe you kind of don't go into it with the faith that you're going to be able to make any change.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:21:38] Yeah, but it's also a negative way to think and it's also a limiting belief of like, I can't change that. But I would say, Well, then what's so special about you that you can't when there are other people out there that have. Right? Like if other people have done it, then you can say no wants to have. I'm no different from you or anybody listening where I used to live in a in a squats, you know, with nothing. I had nothing to my name was an issue for my background. It was nothing had nothing. And and today my life is radically, drastically different because of my brain. So I know what it feels like to be on the floor and not wanting to, you know, or not feeling you can ever change. I quite get it. I know. Trust me. Arms of process. I know. But what I also know is if you're the one that's generating those thoughts in your brain, which is like, I can't do it and this isn't going to work for me, then that's you creating that thing. Okay, So if you can create that thinking, you can also create different thinking and the power is completely in your hands. Completely.

Gemma Styles [00:22:41] I think I am going to shift the weighting slightly from a standard episode and give us a slightly longer Q&A section because I feel like that's maybe how people are going to get the most out of this. I felt like I've picked some questions out from the many, many that we had in. I'm going to start with a question from Georgia who says, I've realised that once I'm actually out and in social situations I don't really have any anxiety and sometimes even thrive in that interaction. However, my anxiety leading up to the interactions can leave me paralysed and many times to influence me to just stay in even though I know I'll have a great time once I'm out. What would be your advice to people like me who have the majority of their anxiety about the thought of being social much more than being in the situation?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:23:31] Which is a perfect question because what George said there is that it's about the thought about going out, right? It's not actually about going out. That's the key of all of that. So none of this is even actually about going out. I mean, that's a great thing to talk about. It's not even about a social situation. This is about what you're thinking. So if you're scaring yourself with your thinking before you walk out that door, the only person this evening you're ruining is your own. And so a thought like, I don't want to go out. This is going to be awful, is not going to be feeling good. But a thought which she's actually given also ready, which is I actually have a really great time when I'm outs feel so much better. Yeah. So that's what I would say to her is pick your thoughts wisely because it's your thoughts, not the social situation that's generated your anxiety. So she's good.

Gemma Styles [00:24:23] Those. Hmm. Well, I mean, how is that just literally a matter of practice of kind of realising when you're having the thought and switching it.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:24:30] Yeah, totally. Exactly that. And you know, reframe isn't built in a day, right? This is not a let me get my magic wand out and it happens overnight. This takes work, right? It's energy and effort. It's like, Oh, I'm doing my own headed with this, right? But the more you do it then becomes second nature if you can't. Oh, right. Yeah. You know what? I need to think of it this way. I'm going to I'm going to think that and I'm going to feel better if I go. And that's it. That's how we do that. Yeah, definitely takes a little bit time and energy and effort, but practice is key. Anything worth having is. Is takes practice. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:25:03] Mm hmm. Let's move on. Next question from Harriet, who says, I sometimes worry that I'm not much fun in a social setting in comparison to others. I'm quite mature in my ways and I don't drink a lot. I like to feel fresh the next morning. How can I stop worrying about what others think?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:25:21] So that's not even so much about what others think is again, back to her thinking that she's not fun enough and that's not ever again. I'm going to sound like a broken record, but well, that's not really her best thought. Like I'm not fun enough. Like, where does she get that information? I would ask. It's a question that if she was sitting in for me, I'd say, okay, prove that to me. Right. Like, give me the facts that that fool is true, that you're not fun. And I'm telling you now, she's not going to give me any facts. She's going to go, Jacklyn, I don't have a name. It's all coming from my mind. And then I would ask her to find different ways to think about it. Because again, that thoughts, you know, I'm not fun enough, right? It's like, why would you choose a thought like that? And also, it's not real or true. And I like facts, too. I think facts and thoughts are different. We don't you know, we aren't all at. But what is a fact versus what is a thought is a very different thing. Fact can be. Proven with evidence. It is true. You can say to me, Yeah, I can. You know, almost like in a court of law. His the fact, his the fact, his the fact. If you don't have any facts to back up that thinking, it cannot be a fact, in which case ideally you should change it. Right. You know, if I'm holding a bottle of Evian and I'm like this is Evian and I know it's Evian and I can prove that it's Evian and I can give you all these facts to prove it, I'm like, Good, So have that. But if you have a thought, which is like, Oh, people don't think I'm fun, I think you're going to have many facts to prove that that's true.

Gemma Styles [00:26:52] Yeah. Yeah. I thought that's a good answer for that. And I think that was another question, which forgive me, I don't have the name in front of me, but that was another question from someone who was kind of saying, But they ended up drinking more than they wanted to really, when they were out because they wanted to seem like they were being fun. Wow. But then all that really did was take the anxiety from the beginning and just move it to the next day, because then they'd have the kind of hangover anxiety and yeah, all the kind of worrying about what people think about how much or drinking. I hope that is something that's changing slightly, but I know that that's something that affects a lot of people in these kinds of situations.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:27:28] Yeah, And I also wonder, I mean, again, I'm just putting this out there and I don't know the asked this, but I wonder if, like all the people listening that are struggling with this, if they change the word anxiety to negative thinking, what would happen? So instead of saying, you know, oh my God, I have really crazy social anxiety, they say to themselves, Oh my God, I have really crazy negative thoughts. That might be like a reminder to be like, okay, I need to change this. I need to find different ways to think. And switching that word might be a good reminder to help people to think differently. And I just wanna remind you again, this is not positive thinking. This is not all right when I'm just going to think this. So even though I don't believe it, but it sounds good, that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we've got to work hard to find a thought we do believe to help us switch up.

Gemma Styles [00:28:14] Yeah, I think the the whole thing about kind of like finding. Evidence for or lack of evidence quite often for other thoughts like that was, again, I'm going back to my own experience of kind of thinking about these things and working on these issues, but yeah, realising what kind of thoughts you're having. So if it might be, you know, I'm worrying about this thing that's going to happen in the future. Oh, look, here I am again. I'm worrying about that thing that's going to happen in the future. I'm realising that you're doing it over and over again. Even just being aware that you're doing it. Is helpful. But again, then when you can kind of pinpoint that same thought that you keep having and even like maybe write it down so you can see that that's what's really niggling at my brain and then trying to look for the evidence of it or look for a lot of the times you can't find any evidence for and kind of logically thinking your way out of it. Even though I know that sounds really simple and I'm not saying that that's. The cure for anxiety. And that's the only thing that counts. Because, like, believe me, I know that it isn't. But when you are in those kind of like for stuck patterns, it can be a really helpful exercise to go through.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:29:25] Yeah. And, you know, again, I'm just going to say again, like your anxiety is not you don't own it's not like a thing that you have that you're born with. It's not something that is like, I have a leg, I have an arm, I have an eye, I have anxiety. But you've got to differentiate. One has to differentiate between, you know, this is actually a feeling and this feeling is coming from through in my brain that I'm making happen through my hat. And, you know, it's like, you know, how do you want to live your life? Do you want to stay in a space of like, well, that's just how it is for me, which of course you can, but you're not going to be you're not going to be living your best life possible. Or are you going to say, you know, I don't want to live like this, I'm going to do my work and find some ways to think about this different place where I can step out the door and feel a feeling that feels much better, i.e., you know, a call or sighted or an affected. Like there's a much better feeling, in which case it's about doing your work to find the thought. And the beauty is, the more you do the walk, the easier it gets and the less you have to do the work. And then it turns into second nature. Mm hmm. So there was an end game, you know.

Gemma Styles [00:30:29] So next question from Becky, who says, I'd like to ask if there are any tips for handling an unbalanced relationship as far as social needs. My husband requires more social stimulation than I do. I often find myself declining to go to social events with him for fear of being stuck for longer than I would like. Any tips? Greatly appreciated.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:30:50] Yes. Girl boundaries. That's my two of like if you want to go but you want to leave earlier, you are able and allows you have permission to do that. You are allowed to say to your husband, you know, it's like I'm going to call my day, but I need to leave, you know, another man because I want to be up early and fresh for the so the next day. So I'll get, you know, the train back early or whatever, and I'll see you back home like you're allowed to do that. And that's also a healthy relationship, you know, where you've both got your boundaries in place and you both come in to something. As to how I did that last night, I went out for dinner with someone and it was much later than I like to eat. But that was, you know, how it was going to be. And I agreed to go. That was my choice. And when I got there, I said, listen, I you know, and we were all eating pizza and I will need to leave by 1130 because I'm up at seven a tomorrow. Now, what someone does with that is, no, I can't control that, but I must also have a boundary. Otherwise, what happens if we don't have boundaries is we have this thing called resentment. And. Right. Resentment is simply. I'm just not saying no, I should be saying no. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:32:02] Yeah. I think that's a can be a tough one as well, because I guess, you know, in some situations it might it might be harder to leave earlier, you know, for what? For whatever reason. But then I guess, like what I would tend to do is like some sometimes I just don't go if I don't want to go, yeah, I don't go. If I know that that's going to be a situation I don't want to be in. And that's not to say that I never, you know, go out and do anything, but it's equally, I think. But depending on what the situation is, I think there's a lot of it where. Where we talked about, you know, being worried about people not liking you or, you know, sometimes you think you have to put yourself in situations because people expect of you. And I think that actually is one thing that since the pandemic we've like maybe readjusted our thoughts of ever so slightly is because, you know. Not necessarily prioritising the expectations of other people for what you're going to do, but prioritising actually how you. How you are going to feel in or after those situations.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:33:06] Yeah, I mean, again, this comes back. It's like it's cyclical, this conversation, because it comes back to self esteem and self worth, right? None of us are going out of our way to upset people. Right. Which of course we can't do anyway, because remember, feelings come from those. So, you know, if someone is upset, that's the way that they're thinking about it. Right. But fundamentally, at the end of the day, you know, and and, of course, as you just said this, every situation is different. But in the situation that you just brought in with that question, she was like, I want to go, but I want to leave early. And that's about saying, yes, you know, yes, I'll come and I will have a boundary go. And, you know, early you can also have a boundary, as you say, in a different situation to say thank you. But no, I'm not going to attend and let go of that as well. So this is why I urge people to do their work, because it's not a fun way to live life. I'm really worried about what other people think of us all the time. It's like really debilitating and I don't think we're born on this earth to be living that way. I think we're born on this earth to live big and to enjoy. And, you know, I'm very much like peace and love, but I don't think I'm here to be living my life to make all the people happy. I'm here to be living my life, doing the best I can to make sure that I'm being true to myself and my soul first and foremost, and that I can live a much peaceful life with a lot more love.

Gemma Styles [00:34:28] Yeah, well, this is good. Okay. Enjoy all this. Okay. Slightly more practical, I think. Question from Mackenzie, who says, I've always had a really hard time making friends due to social anxiety. I'll have one or two conversations with them and it won't go anywhere. So I'm not sure if you guys could touch on ways to continue forming that bond with someone or even how to find those people who you have the bond with to begin with.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:34:55] I think bonds with people takes time, like it takes time to build a bond. But I think what would be really great in a situation like that is first of all, it's like really cool that she's going out and she's trying. And I hate that she gets a soft credit for that because that's amazing. And second of all, it's about asking questions. People really like to talk about themselves, and I think asking questions to people about themselves is a really great way to start to build, you know, a form of relationship and rapport to build up. That's what I would suggest.

Gemma Styles [00:35:29] Yes, They're kind of going into maybe going into conversations with that in mind might just be a helpful sort of. Yeah. Just something to, like, fall back on when you feel like you're not sure where to go next.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:35:42] Definitely. I mean, it's always good to. To talk to people about them, you know? And that's a really good way for people. People want to talk about themselves. It's a you know, it's a thing. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:35:53] I guess also, if you're kind of trying to, like, move into more of a friendship rather than a kind of acquaintance thing is I think is. Which again, could be quite sort of nerve wracking, but like putting yourself out there and like asking them to do something with you, like if you have, if you've had a conversation with someone and you think, Oh, I like this person, I feel like I've connected with them. Like, what is it that you've connected with? Like, is that something that you've got in common that you could maybe then suggest that you do something related, that interest together or. Yeah, kind of try and see it. Use the conversation to see whether you should be friends, if you know what I mean, rather than just thinking, okay, this is a person I'm talking to. I have to just make them my friend. How am I going to do that? Like make it about the person rather than thinking, you know, I just have to make it happen or whatever the situation is.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:36:49] Yeah, exactly. And be gentle with yourself.

Gemma Styles [00:36:53] Always, always.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:36:55] Find a happy, gentle. Be kind. Go slowly. And also, you know, it's okay if that person says no, that's okay as well. It might not be personal. Might not be about you. It might be like they just call. Make it that day. Like it's okay.

Gemma Styles [00:37:08] Yeah, totally. I mean, that's one of those things as well, I guess, is we're going back into that kind of like thought patterns. But how do you kind of interrogate those thoughts if will say you were in that situation, you'd like someone to hang out or do something or whatever? If they've said no, for example, and you're thinking, Oh, they didn't like me, this has happened, I must have set this wrong, this must have gone wrong. How do you kind of work through? Those kind of thoughts and. Kind of talk back against them.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:37:36] Like I say, Depersonalise, I like we always make it about us, right? When we learn how to not make anything personal. It's really powerful, right? So it's never. It's never personal. It's never personal.

Gemma Styles [00:37:50] Yeah.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:37:51] It's always about what they are thinking or feeling or whatever or whatever. Right? So learning that if someone says no to you about that, that might not be about you is quite a powerful place to be living. Right. And that's what you should say to yourself. Like, this might not be about me and you should say a humorous way to yourself. And it just sort of turns down the pressure.

Gemma Styles [00:38:13] It really makes me think of a conversation I've had before, which I think it was more about dating, actually, but, you know, the kind of like that sort of social fear like before you go on a date. And I think that's kind of getting stuck in What if I don't like me? What if I don't like me? What if they don't like me? That kind of loop and even like trying to reframe being like, well, what if you don't like them, right? That's if not, then not then you're going to try and go on a day and think. You know, with the aim to not like them or to judge them or anything else, but kind of yet trying to just flip things a little bit.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:38:45] So that's exactly I mean, what you've just said there is exactly how it works. Right. What if I don't like them or if they don't make me laugh very well if I don't find them attractive? Right. Like, that's much more powerful than doing it the other way on. Like what they don't think on there mean. It's just. It's just that it's going to lead you down the wrong path to take you into the wrong feelings face. Says you just did that, which was brilliant. You flip it over and you're like, Yeah, all right. I go out the door and I'm could be looking at the state totally different. And it is you can do that yourself, right? You either make yourself go that way or you make yourself go this way, and that's your decision.

Gemma Styles [00:39:23] Okay. Next question from Emma, who says, So she's kind of talking again about the the pre social situation, but says, I often find myself planning out what to say in social situations and thinking about every possible situation that could happen before I meet someone new or I'm in a new environment and then I'm and then I'm never present in that situation. And then I feel guilty and regretful about it afterwards. Do you have any tips to try and be more in the moment and present even when you feel anxious?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:39:54] Yeah, to remind yourself to be present and in the moment. And you know, that is the K of like walking into a party and saying to yourself in your mind, I'm going to be present in the moment you call unforeseeable. Someone's going to say like that to me, sounds like a control issue. And it sounds to me like this person struggles with uncertainty. And the thing is, life is uncertain, right? So we have to find ways to like, be at peace in that space of like I call I don't know what's coming next. I've got no idea what's up and might want to talk about or not want to talk about what I was on. But but of course, at that point, she's missing the moment. She's probably also missing really great conversation with people. So I think it's about literally in that space, like a constant reminder throughout the day, not just when she's at a party, but like I need to be present today. And maybe that is about connecting back with her. So, you know, and being like, okay, I'm you know, I'm making I'm brushing my teeth. You know, I'm eating a sandwich, right? Like constantly going back into the present moment and into the present moment. And that will help her sort of define doing that when she's in a social situation. That'll be very helpful.

Gemma Styles [00:41:04] Yeah, I can I can relate to that question quite a lot. I think I probably do more afterwards. But yeah, there is that kind of like fear element of. You know what? If somebody says something and I don't immediately know what to say.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:41:16] I would just say so to say to that person to do war, I don't know what to say. I'm like, What's the worst that could happen? No one in their right mind is going to be like, What do you mean you don't know what to say? Jana Boy, no one's going to do that. They're going to go, Oh, and they're going to explain something to you. You're going to learn something or you're going to giggle about it. It's like, why should we be nervous of not knowing, You know, again, this is about kindness and gentleness, like, it's okay that I don't know anything. I'm dyslexic, I can't do math. My high rise things were really bad, right? But I'm not. I'm human and I'm not perfect at that. And I don't know lots of things. And I would say, you know what? I'm really sorry. I don't know. Maybe you could explain it, or maybe you could detect it and you could build really good relationships when you're really authentic like that. You know, if someone said that to you, if you spoke to someone and they were like you, you know what I mean? I don't know. Would you be like, would you get mad at them or like, tell them off or think, you know you would, right? I mean.

Gemma Styles [00:42:20] No, absolutely no. And I think, yeah, those I mean, I love, I don't know, a as a statement that's one of my favourite favourite things to use as a tool. And yeah, I think that also then just comes back around to, you know, we even when we're kind of like panicking in advance about these kind of things, we hold ourselves possibly even to much higher standards than other people will hold us, you know, and we expect that we have to have like the perfect witty remark to every situation. And we're never allowed to just say, Oh, I don't know, I haven't thought about all I'll say, Can you give me a minute or any of these, you know, normal human things. And I think when you hear those things or little, you know, stumbles in words or anything from other people, you probably don't really give them a second thought. And you can look at them and appreciate that they're human and they're having a real time human conversation with you. And they might trip over their words or, you know, say something weird and say, Oh, actually I didn't mean that kind of thing. And like, I wouldn't judge someone for doing that. So I have to just think, you know, they shouldn't judge me for doing that either. And if they do, that's more about them. It is about me. That's what I try and tell myself.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:43:27] I think that's true. And I also think we give like so much space for that. Like, as if people care that much about us and they just don't. They just don't. They just say they're like, you know, we worry so much to be like, Dagen I think that da da da and it's like they haven't even noticed because they're so busy in their own hands about what's going on for them, right? I remember when I was in recovery and I had to sponsor back in the day and he was really tough with me. I love him even now, you know, it's like 25 years later, he's probably like. For about 92 years old now. And when he when I met him and I had this, you know, I had really low self esteem, really 000 self-worth. And I always thought it was always about me. I remember saying something and he said he looked at me and he was like. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? I know. Yeah, but.

Gemma Styles [00:44:18] Go for it.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:44:18] He was like, It's not like this isn't fucking about you. No one cares about you. When you walk into that room. Stopper. And I like it. And I like what you read. Nobody cares about me. Like what?

Gemma Styles [00:44:31] It sounds really mean.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:44:33] I was like, What? But it was one of the most amazing things he could have said because it's just suddenly, like, everything shattered for me. I was like, Oh, yeah. No one cares about, like, the kind of jeans I'm wearing or whether my hair's a bit dirty or like, nobody cares because they're all focussed on themselves. And it took a lot of pressure off, you know?

Gemma Styles [00:44:52] Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. Okay, I'm going to do one last question because I think this is like a deep dive because this is advice that we've just given. And those questions from Baylor, who's kind of anticipated that we're going to say, just don't think about it. Oh, she's not having any of it. She's got it. She's got a follow up question. Okay. So Baylor's question, how do I stop assuming everyone dislikes me, even people in my inner circle? I don't think I want to disregard whether I'm liked or not, because these people truly matter to me.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:45:25] The first thing I would say is that and I say the word respect and in a really nice way, but like have some respect of the people that you're hanging out with. What I mean by that is I'm pretty sure the people she's hanging out with, the probably really nice people and that they're not going to hang out with people that they don't want to hang out with anyway. So if they're hanging out with her, it's probably because they really want to hang out with her, unless they are people that are completely, you know, doing things that they never really want to do in their lives, which I think that's doubtful. So I think I would say that I would also say that, you know, this thought process about nobody really likes me is something the really to do it for her to do a deep dive on herself because where did she get that from and why is she choosing to think that over and over again and again? I'm going to sound like a broken record, but like, what evidence is she got of that? Because if she keeps going out with the same group of friends, she hasn't really got any evidence to prove that thought that no would like to because they just put them by her. So, you know, that photo is something to really, you know, dive into a neck and and sort of, you know, pick apart and show that it's not real. So it's a limited it's a limited belief. And it isn't it isn't real.

Gemma Styles [00:46:35] If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then you can follow us on Instagram or Twitter at Good Influence US and you can email the podcast are good influence pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest, and so could you please recommend us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch?

Jacqueline Hurst [00:46:57] Okay, So I know people, right? Why say no? Let me rephrase that. People might be raising their eyebrows at this, but when you say what should I listen? Say I'm going to say your gut.

Gemma Styles [00:47:07] Okay. Like that.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:47:08] Yeah. I think it's a really important thing to listen to. Call me go wrong if you're listening. Choke up when you say something to watch. This was one of the movies that I watched years ago, and it was really mind opening. And it might be interesting for people that are interested in the game of mindset. And this movie was called What the BLEEP to Be Know. And it was I think it was about 2004, 2003, 2004, and it's basically about quantum physics and consciousness. And it's a really interesting sort of movie to expand your minds about you as a person and the energy and all of that and how you live your life. So I would say that's a row, you know, open your mind, get your popcorn and sit down and watch.

Gemma Styles [00:47:54] That fascinating level.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:47:55] Yeah, it was really fascinating. It was a huge part of of, you know, the work I did as I started to start this journey. And I know this is really naughty what it comes to reading, but I would have to say this, which is I'm going to say, is my book.

Gemma Styles [00:48:09] Not naughty at all I.

Jacqueline Hurst [00:48:10] Would say is my guide to Java and it's called How to Do You. And you can get on Amazon and it's a book where it's basically separates it up into chapters of like all different things. And anxiety is in there and it comes with like worksheets in the book for you to learn about how to think properly, how to think correctly. And yeah, you can do that on Amazon or you can also get it on an audiobook as well.

Gemma Styles [00:48:35] Thank you for listening and thank you Jacqueline for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using and if you're feeling extra generous, you can leave a rating under review as well. See you next week.