S03E11 Transcript: Ellie Middleton on ADHD in Women

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Gemma Styles [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who helps us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answering some of your questions. This week we're talking about ADHD in women, how the condition can present differently than people often expect. The privilege of obtaining a diagnosis, the light bulb moment that finding your community can bring. I will also note here that we're having this discussion as two women who were both diagnosed with ADHD in adulthood. Neither of us are doctors or psychiatrists. This is a chat about personal experiences and things we've learnt does not substitute professional advice. So joining me this week is Ellie Middleton. Ellie is a writer, activist and content creator. After being diagnosed with ADHD as well as autism at the age of 24, she went on to found the online community unmasked, which she describes as a safe space, offering resources, friends and support to people with autism, ADHD and other neurodivergent conditions. The inspiration behind LinkedIn's I Am Professional Campaign, Ellie is working hard to break down stereotypes about Neurodivergent women.

Ellie Middleton [00:01:14] All throughout childhood teenage years. Even now, it's like, I'll find one hobby and I'll be like, This is my life. I will live and die by this hobby. If it's bacon, I'll go out. I'll buy all the bacon equipment. I'll start an Instagram page thinking is that I'm going to start a baking business. And then two weeks later, I'm like, No, I actually don't even enjoy baking. I was just looking for something to keep me busy.

Gemma Styles [00:01:37] So let's kick off. Could you, if you wouldn't mind, tell us a bit about your experience of being diagnosed with ADHD.

Ellie Middleton [00:01:45] Yeah, so it's all happened very quickly for me. So it's all in the last like nine, ten months. So basically I have always struggled with my mental health, always being misdiagnosed with like anxiety and depression and kind of always going through cycles of being like this busy, energetic, ambitious, like bubbly person and then just crashing and burning every like six months also. And I think the main time was kind of like sixth form. And so actually dropping out of school because I just crashed and burned. And then I think that cycle kind of kept happening. And about the start of last year when we were it was the third lockdown after Christmas where we were all kind of like cooped up. I think I could kind of like feel that crashing and burning happening again. And I was kind of like, there's something going on here. Like, it's not anxiety, it's not depression. Like, I'm not an anxious person. Like, I don't worry about things. Like, I just think galore. And I was like almost like, yeah, aware that something else was going on and digging around online about, you know, Google in my symptoms or whatever and trying to just like find an answer to whatever else was going on. And at the same time I was having counselling and me and my counsellor were kind of just talking about something and she said to me, Has it ever been looked into why you take things so literally? And I was like, No, it hasn't. But like, I think I know, I hinting, I hear. So I kind of went away and that kind of put me on the autism path first and then seeing that and then kind of discovering this whole world of like neurodiversity, I guess. And yeah, kind of saw a lot about ADHD and autism and I was like, I think I know what's going on here. And so, yeah, I kind of had that lightbulb moment. Spoke to someone from the NHS who was like, Yeah, I think, I think you definitely need a diagnosis or an assessment at least for ADHD and autism. So I kind of went ahead with the ADHD 1/1 because it felt like a more tangible outcome. I think I think I was like aware that if I did have ADHD and could get a diagnosis that was like the option of going on medication, which could kind of like help get me out of this pit that I was in. So I was almost like, Yeah, that one seems more urgent right now. So I actually went private for that one because I was just at a point where I was like, I need some answers and I need them now. Yeah, yeah. Managed to get a private assessment and got my ADHD diagnosis in October last year and then kind of had that realisation and then got my autism diagnosis in like February or March. So yeah, it's a bit of a whirlwind, but I think it was just that that reading of all the list of symptoms and being like this all make sense now. Like, Yeah, yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:04:35] Things kind of falling into place and making a lot of sense. There's definitely something I can relate to as well. So I mean, as it's been so recent, talk to me a little bit about Unmasked because I feel like a lot of the work that you do now that that must have happened really quite quickly in terms of when you'd had that diagnosis and when it became a much bigger and kind of more public part of your life and kind of what you do. How did you found that community and why? I guess.

Ellie Middleton [00:05:06] Yeah. So yeah, I think so. I think part of it was literally just that I had this. And this almost like, felt like I had, like, the secret that everyone needed to know about. You know, I think I'd always been quite open about, like, struggling with what I thought was anxiety, and I'd always been quite open, like even through school. I think if we think back to like so it was like ten years ago, the mental health conversation wasn't like as far forward as it was now. And I was kind of like trying to like talk about my anxiety and stuff like that and at heart more like very small scale, just like people that I knew through school and people that I knew personally being like, Oh my God, thank you. Like, I really relate to what you're saying. And then suddenly I was like, Well, how many of those people were I? You know, I was wrong. I didn't have anxiety. So the thing that I was talking about that they were relating to how many of them were actually relating to the fact that it was an anxiety. You know, if I was in, I would say it was resonating with them then, you know, they need to know about this, too, because this might be their answer and then they might have that light bulb moment. And I think it was this like, yeah, it was like I felt like the world needed to know. Like I it was such like a light bulb moment for me and everything. Like we had just clicked into place. I was like, how many other people are there out there like waiting for this light bulb moment to happen? So I guess that was kind of like my reason for wanting to talk about it, but I haven't really strange like actually. So around that same time in October, I'd just started working in social media and one of the things that I was doing was working on like limiting content for clients. So the company that I was working for at the time kind of were like, you know, I'd never posted on LinkedIn in my life. I had this idea that LinkedIn was for like professional men in suits. Like, I just it was not me. Yeah. And they'd said to me, like, it'd be good if you could stop posted on LinkedIn, because it's what we do for clients and it's almost like showing that what good at the service were offering. So I was like, Yeah, okay, I can do that. And I did a post about basically like about that, about what it means to be professional and saying, you know, just because I'm young doesn't mean I'm not professional. Just because I talk about my ADHD doesn't mean I'm not fashionable cause I've got tattoos, piercings, doesn't mean I'm not professional. And that post just took off. So that kind of, I guess, kickstarted it. I think that kind of got me to about 10,000 followers, like, pretty much like overnight. So I think it was like the combination of suddenly having an audience bigger than anything I'd had before that was interested in what I had to say and suddenly having this thing that I really wanted to tell people about. So I think the two just combined on it is just like spiralled and styled and snowballed since then. But yeah, I do think it was just this. It was just this like, yeah, I couldn't it did not make sense to me how it taken me such a long time to get this answer. And it was like almost I felt like I need, I, I need all the people to, like, know that this might be the answer to what's going on for them as well.

Gemma Styles [00:08:03] Yeah, I, that makes sense to me as well I think. I mean, I'm a bit older than you are, but in a similar way, you know, have had years of talking about depression and anxiety and like that had basically been even like, like some kind of mood disorder was suggested at some point. And I felt like I had the same sort of thing as you where you've gone. Oh, actually that makes quite a lot of sense. Yeah. I'm interested to hear you say I mean, you talking about those things now, you say you were misdiagnosed with them and actually you don't think you are an anxious person? I I'm definitely still a very anxious person, but I've kind of had the same thing where you look back and wonder how much how much of it was sort of intermingled. And yeah, it definitely can be quite frustrating. I think. Like I can remember specific conversations that I'd had with a therapist. I was saying where I was talking about experiences I'd had kind of on antidepressants and how even though I felt less sad and they'd sort of eased the symptoms of that depression, I still just felt like there was something not right and I just wasn't able to do things and I just didn't understand why I couldn't just get things done. And now having this bit of extra knowledge, I'm like, How on earth did we not realise this sooner? I could have known that years ago. It was quite frustrating. Have you found.

Ellie Middleton [00:09:31] Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:09:32] That frustration and element to too?

Ellie Middleton [00:09:35] Yeah, definitely. I think like something that I think about a lot is that I was so lucky, like I spent. So I was referred to the children and Adolescents Mental Health Service when I was about 15. So from the age of 15 to 19, I spent so much time with medical professionals. I had a key worker at times that I would see once a week. I saw a psychiatrist because I was on antidepressants under the age of 18. So it had to come from a psychiatrist, rather, in for my doctor. I saw psychologists. I did like therapy. And it's like that is such a privileged position to have that amount. Of like access to all those medical professionals because most people can't get that help. Like, I was one of the lucky few that did get the help and still didn't. Nobody even once like, flagged it. And I'm like, What? What hope in hell have like 90% of people got? If I was so lucky to get that help, like that's great that I got all that and still not one single person at one single point when actually I wonder if this is what's going on here and that like literally it astounds me that I'm like, you know, that I must have spent 100 hours underneath, like with people that were working in mental health teams. And I think because it is so like separate, almost like the, the neurodiversity and the neurodevelopmental teams and the mental health teams in the NHS they don't like, nobody even considered that. That might be what was kind of triggering me to feel that way. And yeah, I think that it just yeah, it really, really blows my mind that I'm like I was literally sat in front of you for like hours and hours and nobody even once went, you know, maybe this is what's going on. And yeah, I think for me, I think it is like it's obviously possible to be like have, you know, still have generalised anxiety alongside having ADHD and autism. But I think for me the ways in which I experienced that sadness and that anxiety can almost be like explained by either the ADHD or the autism. So the like worry side of the anxiety, I don't think it was necessarily worries. It was just like lots and lots of thoughts. Like I would always just say to my mom, like, I wish my brain would shut up. And it's like for me, I think that's more ADHD than anxiety because it's just like having an overactive brain and then like the depression side. For me, it was all like these kind of six month late crash and burns. And now I look back and I'm like, I think that's just like autistic meltdown. Autistic shut down. It's just me being overwhelmed and getting to that point where I crashed and burned. So I think and I think since I've kind of found out and got my diagnosis and learnt more about myself, I don't really experience those feelings in the same way because yeah, like you say it's like you know what's going on underneath that to cause it. So it's not just like, why do I feel so sad? Why, you know, why is this medication not helping me? Like what? Like just that kind of like, loss of answers. Whereas now I'm like, okay, yeah, I feel sad, but I feel sad because I've been busy all week and I've beat myself out, always been in a noisy environment or I've not been in that stimuli. It's like I can almost logically work out why I'm feeling those feelings rather than just like the helplessness of I'm feeling this feeling just, you know, out of nowhere, I guess.

Gemma Styles [00:12:59] Yeah. I think that's a really good point that you make actually, because, you know, I've thought before, how did this not get picked up, etc.? But that is a really good point because when we're talking about ADHD or autism, they're not mental illnesses. It's like it's a whole different kind of thing. So I guess in the same way that like if you or I or someone has been speaking to mental health professionals, I guess maybe it's just not what they're looking for, like if that's not what you want them with, obviously, like luckily for both of us, like we've eventually like managed to figure this out, but I suppose it does make a bit more sense as to why, you know, like if you went to. I don't know. Do you know what I mean?

Ellie Middleton [00:13:42] Yeah, it's like. It's like you almost go into, like, a physio, but, you know, actually, you've got a cut on your knee, like. Yeah, yeah. I think it's like you're almost going to like the wrong person, but I. Yeah, I think it is very like a grey area because, like, they're not mental illnesses, but they're still diagnosed by a psychiatrist. So I think it's like, yeah, I think it is almost that it's not what they're looking for. But I also think like especially with us both being women, they're not looking for the right things, like all the kind of diagnostic criteria and all the research and all the like. Idea is always like boys, it's the ADHD. Like even I would if someone were to ask me this time a year ago, I would want to say like, What was your opinion on ADHD? I would have been like, naughty little schoolboy, you know, someone that's young, someone was rocking backwards and forwards in the chair. Like, it's almost like they're looking for this, like outward hyperactivity of like causing chaos. They're not looking for how it so often is in girls either, not having the hyperactivity and just being inattentive. Often me, I am definitely hyperactive, but it's just internal. Like, Yeah, I might not be running around the room, I might not have been rocking on my chair and causing chaos in school, but I was having 20,000 thoughts inside my head, which I think is like a lot of the reason that they say that girls are more likely to be diagnosed with mental illness is because it's like, yeah, the hyperactivity is in me fidgeting or running around. It's me having loads of thoughts which when I explain that to somebody, sounds a lot like anxiety, having loads of thoughts and thinking about things over and over again. And yeah, I think it's like, yeah, almost a combination of like the system, the way in which it works is like when you get to that point that look at, okay, this is how this person is feeling, this is how we treat how this person is feeling, but not almost like, well, what's what's causing them to feel that way, but also that like, yeah, they're not, they're not necessarily looking for the way that it shows up in people that that kind of stereotypical white young boy.

Gemma Styles [00:15:44] Yeah, definitely. I think that's kind of it as well, where it all gets so messy and tangled up because especially as we're talking about ADHD in kind of adult women, which we both all this is all sort of lived experience. It is so, so common. And I've then found out from researching that, especially for adult women to have the sort of co-morbid depression, anxiety. And it does make a lot of sense when you look at it that way sometimes, because by the time you've got to adulthood, knowingly or unknowingly, you've spent so many years. Kind of masking the things that you've maybe found difficulty with or knowing that you find things really difficult that other people don't seem to find difficult and sort of beating yourself up about it and like feel like you're a rubbish person and feel like you're not doing things properly, feel that you can't cope. And kind of really internalising that on yourself. I mean, that's very much my experience. And I'm saying that, you know, that won't be the same for everyone. But I've read a lot of people saying similar things as an adult woman. What were some of the things? That you can now kind of point to and say, oh, that was a symptom for me.

Ellie Middleton [00:17:02] Yeah, I think definitely like the the busy brain, like just that like literally when my momma said like since being like literally like five years old, I would just be like, oh, I just, you know, I just wish my brain would shut up or not being able to sleep because I was just like thinking about loads of different things. I think that for me is like the busyness of my brain and just like how much I'm thinkin. I think like the, the, the high fixations have definitely been a big thing for me, like getting really obsessed with something and then like, yeah. So it's almost like with all throughout kind of like childhood teenage years, even now it's like, I'll find one hobby and I'll be like, This is my life. I will live and die by this hobby. Like if it's bacon, I'll go out, I'll buy all the bacon equipment. I'll start an Instagram page thinking, Right, this is I'm going to start a baking business. And then two weeks later, this is like two weeks later, I'm like, No, I actually don't even enjoy baking. I was just looking for something to keep me busy. I think that is something like I have gone through. Like I was never that person that was like, I know what I want to do with my life. Like, I, you know, my dream job is this. It was like a new thing every you know, I played football when I was at primary school. Then I did like performing arts, then I did cheerleading, and then I was doing maths. And then I wanted to, you know, there's all so many. Like it was almost like a different obsession every year or whatever. And yeah, I think just like, yeah, the chaos. I think like I am so chaotic and it's like, I think like you say, a lot of that was masked because I didn't see anyone around me being that chaotic and I was like, okay, you can't you can't be like this. But yeah, I think for me it's always like, what's the next thing that I can do? What's a different thing that I can do? You know what something that's going to keep me like my I feel like something has to be a lot to actually use up my whole brain. So I'm always looking for like something else. Like, I'd always be booking trips, I'd always be like looking for a gig to go to or, you know, looking for cause to sign up to our job to apply to. Just like, yeah, just almost like, not knowing what I was on. Just like firing off in a hundred different directions and just like waiting to see what would happen, I think. I think sticking to, like, the routines and stuff is something that shadows me as well. Like just something like I used to be like, why can't I just remember to brush my teeth? Like, why do I find it so difficult to remember to brush my teeth before bed? I'm like, why is it like everyone else just no, it's like, you know, in your brain you have to brush your teeth before Badger. But then it's just like, yeah, I guess the forgetfulness was another another thing for me. And always being the person that like forgotten that or forgotten their stuff for food tech, however. But yeah, there's like generally chaos.

Gemma Styles [00:19:42] Do you ever get this? This is just a personal question. Now, do you ever get the thing where like because I know you're saying about kind of like forgetting to brush your teeth, for example, do you have half the thing where like I can think of doing it all the time while bizarre and I'm much more inattentive type than I am hyperactive type like way more. But I'll sit and kind of think, Oh, like I'm first I need to get a glass of water and then just sit there and not move.

Ellie Middleton [00:20:09] And it's like you can't like complete the stages of like, yeah, doing the thing that you need to do well, like get yourself up to it. I do it a lot with, like, like with tick tock. I'll be on my phone on tick tock. And I bet you've been on here for so long you need to get off this. Like, why are you why are you still scrolling? Why are you why? You know, you just go to bed and it's like, yeah, you know, the thing that you need to do, but your brain just won't do it.

Gemma Styles [00:20:30] Yeah. That thing where you have the thought and think I should do this now, and 20 minutes later you're like, Oh, you haven't done that thing that you really need to do. Why don't you just stand up right now and do that thing and you just don't do it? And it's so like, that is the thing that I've really struggled. To kind of explain to people over the years. And that has been very sort of like affirming for me to have other people have the same thing because it just has always made me feel like I'm just useless and lazy. And yet, like, not that there's something wrong with me, just that I'm like a shit human being. You know? I mean.

Ellie Middleton [00:21:05] Like, yeah, I think the laziness thing is like something that is, like, taken a lot of, like. Like I need to like dig around in that a lot because it's like, yeah, you convince yourself that you're a lazy person. And I was talking to my counsellor about it and she was like, Lazy people don't worry that they're lazy that just like, they're just lazy. That's like just who they are as a person. They just accept that. Not necessarily even lazy, but just like they just accept that they're chilled out and they're not in a rush and there's no there's no like panic or drive. Lazy people don't sit around thinking, I need to do this thing right now. Like, why aren't I doing it? They just that's not even a thought process. So for us to be, like, worrying that we're lazy proves that we're not, because it's like the drive is there to do the thing. Like it's just it it's like you just physically. Yeah, it's almost like the brain doesn't like, pass the signal along to like the rest of your body to like match up with it. It's like, yeah, it's almost like it's like a where and there's like this little like conversation going on in my head, like, yeah, you need to do this. Like, you need to stop doing this or and then it's just like not, not picked off and like passed on to the next person to tell me like like to stand up for whatever.

Gemma Styles [00:22:11] Yeah, definitely. It reminds me as well of a conversation I had with the psychiatrist. I was saying about the I kind of I literally I said to him, I was like, I feel like I am just rubbish. And I've somehow managed to convince both you and myself that I have this condition that I don't even have. And he was like, Well, one, what does that say about me? Like, this is literally my job. Like it's my job to know these things and to like, I don't know, it's just. Yeah. Try not trying to explain all these things that just haven't made any sense for so long. But equally, one of the things he said to me because were I was thinking like, Oh, I just can't get tasks done and I don't understand why I don't just have the willpower. Like I've always thought of myself as someone who has no willpower. Yeah. And like we were talking about, like one specific task that I'd been putting off doing for literally like four years or something. And he was like, If it was a matter of willpower, at some point in those four years, you would have just done it is is not about you not wanting to do it. And like going through that cycle where I'd get up every morning and think like, right today I'm going to do that thing. Like that task is getting done today and I will not go to bed until it's done. And then the day just kind of like blaring on by I mean not doing the thing and going to bed feeling like the worst person in the world and then just starting all over again. So tired. Yeah.

Ellie Middleton [00:23:37] I think it's the thing as well. Like with the willpower, like having the willpower to think about doing that thing every day. Like if you if yeah, if it was about willpower, like you wouldn't spend four years thinking about doing something like that that takes more energy or more like not being lazy to like remind yourself every day to do the thing than actually just, you know, if you were lazy, you'd probably just do it on the first day because it's like not think about it anymore. But we've actually used so much more like, yeah, willpower or like energy and actually like trying to do it for all of those days. It would actually be easier if you were lazy just to think, Right, well, I'll just do it. And then I think about the next four years. Like, yeah, I think it's like a proper, a real breakthrough when you like realise I definitely got that like imposter syndrome as well though like thinking that maybe I'm just faking it to like make everybody think that that's why I'm so, you know, actually not useless. Like, yeah, I think for me that was like a big thing of like I knew what I was reading through everything. And after that one conversation with my counsellor, I knew reading through it, I was like, I am 100%, this is me. But I could not accept it until somebody had told me because I was like, Yeah, maybe, maybe I am just like trying to convince myself that this is the reason why I've not achieved things or this is the reason why I'm chaotic or I haven't fit in whatever. And it's like somebody that wasn't feeling that way wouldn't they wouldn't even consider because they'd just be, you know, living their life. They wouldn't be thinking like, Hmm was a way that I can convince everybody the right way to live my life. Like, yeah, yeah. It's wild how the overactive mind works.

Gemma Styles [00:25:10] So how have you found now that you have started talking about this a lot online and you've sort of founded a community around it, how have you found the response to it? Like, have you spoken to a lot of people who have had a similar experience to you? Is it mainly women you've connected with on those very specific sort of points? What is the community element been like for you?

Ellie Middleton [00:25:32] Yeah, I think the the main thing is like finally having that thing of like relate into somebody on something. And I think that's like something that I have never really had, you know, like when people would be like, oh, you know, when you do this and it's like, no, I don't like I think that's the thing that I'd never like through school. I never really fit in to like friendship groups. Like I've never really had that thing where I could like deeply relate to somebody and then let you talk to somebody else that's like in the same situation. And they're like, like, it turns out we all have, like, lived the same life. Like, we've all done that thing where we convince ourselves, which is lazy. You know, we've all gone through a stage of like, you know, having all these, like, wild hyper fixations and it's like having that feeling of being like, Oh yeah, it's so reassuring. You're like, Oh my God, there's actually so many people out there that are living the same life. Just because I haven't personally bumped into them in my school doesn't mean that like, it's just me that's going through it. Like it's there's so many of us out there we just haven't known or haven't been in physical contact with each other. And I think, yeah, I think as a mix of like all different types of people, but I think the further away that you are from that like White Boy, the less likely it is that you get that diagnosis when you're young. So the more likely it is that you have all these like relatable experiences because you're undiagnosed. So I think like, yeah, it's just almost that sense of I think a lot of people have. Like the reason I wanted to talk about it was to help people get a light bulb moment. And I think a lot of people like have, like I've had so many people reach out and be like, Oh my God, I've seen your stuff. Like, I relate to this thing that you've said. I've looked into it. I think this be my answer to I'm going to speak to my doctor and that is like the best thing in the world being like that's actually, you know, I know how much better I feel now. I've got that clarity and being able to be like the trigger point for somebody else to go away and get that clarity too. That's, that's amazing. Yeah. I think it's just. Yeah. Having it like being able to feel normal. I think, you know, that's something that I have not had. And then for me to speak about it and for me to even feel normal when hundreds of people are going back and saying, Yeah, I did this too, I had this to offer this to the for all of those people out there to feel normal because I seen someone like public. Speaking about it, I think. Yeah, it's amazing that we've. I think it's almost like double reward. And because we've waited such a long time to have that feeling of feeling normal or that feeling of like fit in and belonging. And so it's finally like, are we finally like, is here? We finally got to. It's really nice to have it myself. I think like, you know, people are like, it's amazing that you like speak about it and you help all these people. I'm like, it's I get just as much benefit from it as well because I feel like I fit in somewhere. Like, you know, I've had the same experiences as everyone out there of like not fit and then, and like we're all like, get in the benefits. Like, I'm getting the benefit of finally like fitting in and being liked and being related to people and like at the same time and doing that, helping other people out that to see it and get that feeling as well.

Gemma Styles [00:28:30] Every week my guest and I will be answering your questions. On the first one comes in from Grace, who says, Hi, my name is Grace. I'm 18 and I was also recently diagnosed with ADHD. This diagnosis has helped me understand my silly little brain a lot and I recently learnt about how low frustration, tolerance and emotional regulation issues can affect people with ADHD. I often get flooded with emotions. I feel like throwing a fit because my brain and body just can't handle them. It feels like barely anyone understands me when I feel this way because what may seem like a small inconvenience for someone else will seem like the end of the world for me. I get scared to talk about it because I think people will think I'm overreacting. I feel a lot of shame because I'm an adult and I feel childish in the way I get so flooded with my feelings. Do you have any tips or helpful coping skills for how to deal with this?

Ellie Middleton [00:29:20] Yeah, I think this is like definitely something that I can relate to. Like, I am definitely that person as well where like that is like the straw that broke the camel's back. I think where something just happens and it's like almost like all comes flooding out. I think for me it's not even like. Change in that behaviour. It's just learning to accept it and think about it in a different way. So I am definitely like the crier, like that is my thing. Like whether I'm tired, whether I'm happy, sad, like that is my almost like I think it's like the worst. So go, go, go, go, go. And then it's like suddenly all these feelings catch up. And for me, it's a cry. And I was, like, sweating, right? So it's my birthday last week, and I got really emotional on my birthday and I was explaining to my mom and I was like, It's not necessarily sadness that's coming out. Like, I tried to explain it like a Coke bottle. So like if you've got a Coke bottle and you shake it and whether you're shaken excitedly or whether you're shaking angrily or whether you're shaking it like whatever emotion you're shaken it with, it's still the same like froth that comes out the top. And like, that's how I feel with all that emotion and cry it. And like, it's not necessarily like, yeah, it doesn't. If I cry, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm sad. It's just that we've been doing so much shaking because our brains are so kind of, yeah, like overactive and like always looking for this, like, extra dopamine hit. So we're like, searching, searching, searching. That's just like, shaken, shaken, shaken. And eventually, like, once you sway the lid, that's going to froth everywhere. I think for me it's almost like, yeah, learning to treat the emotion as, like, not getting mad at myself for getting upset or not thinking, you know, I like Grace was saying about kind of feeling childish. I think it's almost like removing that judgement from that thing and just being like, this is just a fact of life. Like I, this is just what happens to me. And I think once you like remove that layer of judgement, it almost makes the feeling less intense I think, because I think, you know, if you've got this like outburst and then you've also got you telling yourself like why are you being so childish? That like adds to that the shake, it adds to the froth. Whereas if you've just got the, the emotion of like, I don't know, the anger or the sadness or whatever's coming out, and it's just that on its own, then I think it feels a lot more manageable to be like, okay, this is a feeling that I'm having. Like, I'm going to have my cry, I'm going to have my, you know, stomp around that and I'm going to feel better afterwards, I think, yeah, removing that like pressure from it and I guess just like having like safe ways to do that. So for me, like I, if I know that I'm like get into that bubble point, I will just take myself out for a really long walk. I'll go with my headphones on. I'll just go from March and like literally I like hate to think what might look like cause I will literally just like, stomped out. But for me, I know that's like, a safer way to do it rather than, like, to keep forcing myself, you know, going to spend time with people all like then like having the reaction in a way that's going to upset somebody or it's going to like damage a friendship or whatever. Like, yeah, I guess it's trying to like learn. The science that that's common, even though it does a lot at the time feel out of nowhere. I think if I really think about it, I know when it's like come in and then not have almost like a, a plan B of what to do at that point. So maybe for you it's like going for a walk, maybe it's, I don't know, having a shower to like refresh yourself. Maybe it's a certain friends that you can like call and rant about it with and you know that they're not going to like take it personally. Like, yeah, just have it almost like an, an outlet for like what you're going to do with all that stuff once it starts overflowing. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:32:53] I mean, I think the coke bottle analogy is amazing. A makes so much sense. And as you say, it's kind of that might look different for different people. So some people might cry, some people might get really angry, some people might just I feel like I'm more just kind of like shut down and can't deal with things because it's all just everything's got a bit too much. Like, I know this is not quite the same as maybe getting upset about something, but that really brought to mind for me, kind of. It was always supermarkets. I'd really struggle like busy supermarkets. I went through a period where it just literally I just couldn't handle it. And I don't know if it was a sensory thing or it was just just something about. But it is that thing where if you don't understand and kind of like talking to yourself and being like, what? Like, why can't I deal with this? It's so annoying. But even as Grace is talking about, you know, feeling childish, I feel like, you know, we all are all ages have emotions. And I mean, even if you feel childish, if you imagine yourself as a child getting upset, you wouldn't be like shouting and then like berating a child for being upset because it doesn't help. As you said, it's kind of if someone's crying and yells going, stop crying, why are you crying like that? Just isn't isn't going to make anyone feel better. So I think that's really good advice. Next question is from Eduardo, who says, how do you feel as a person diagnosed with ADHD about all of the rails and posts online that encourage people to diagnose themselves? And how harmful do you think it can be for people on the Internet who consume this content? I understand that may be seeing some of the symptoms on videos and posts can help someone look for a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I believe that most of the time people just diagnose themselves and don't always go for professional help. What do you think about that?

Ellie Middleton [00:34:41] I think it's a very grey area because I can understand that kind of like thing of like it's not helpful for somebody that doesn't actually have ADHD to kind of think that they do because the things that, you know, they're going to put into place might not necessarily be the most helpful for them. But I think I very much kind of like at the other end of the scale that I know that if it wasn't for seeing videos online, I would never have got my diagnosis because the stuff that you see on like the NHS website is very catered at that young white boys. So like the way that some of the traits are explained, I could have read through it and been like, Yeah, kind of like yeah, I'm a bit forgetful, but like it wouldn't have really related to me in the same way. Whereas when I saw other people with lived experience talking about it, it was almost like translating those black and white symptoms into like a real life experience that I'd experience. And it was like, Oh my God, yes, I actually really do do that. So I think for me and that's kind of why I choose to post about it online, because it's giving people that context to relate to. I think another thing to kind of like bring up is that. Like a medical diagnosis is a huge privilege. Like the waiting lists are so long. I was really lucky to be able to afford to pay for it, and I'm so grateful for that. But it's not that's not possible for everybody. And you know that the waiting list can be up to like four years in certain places. So if somebody that some that somebody doesn't have a choice whether to get a medical diagnosis or not, you know, they're literally on the waiting list. So if they can make that decision for themselves and self-diagnose, then they can start. They accept in themselves, start learning why they've done the things that they've done and start putting things into place to to to cope better. And I think that that's like the risk of people not knowing is greater than the risk of somebody maybe self-diagnose and a bit like jumping the gun. I think like, you know, there's no proof in a perfect world we'd all be able to, you know, find out about it, go see a doctor the next day, get a diagnosis and get the help that we need. But we don't live in a perfect world. And again, like the diagnostic criteria isn't, it's based on research done on young white boys. So if you're any further away from that, you might even if you physically have ADHD, you might if, you know, if you're like a black person, if you're a queer person, if you're a trans person, if you're a woman, you might go and sit in front of a doctor and go through the things and they're like, Hmm, no, that doesn't quite tick the box, because the box wasn't designed for how it how it shows up in you. So, like, not only is it hard to even get to the point of having an appointment because you might have to either wait for Yeah. Is I'll pay you hundreds of pounds you then also might not even get that answer at the end of the appointment just because the questions were worded in quite a way that like represents the way that it shows up for you. So yeah, I think it's, it's a grey area as well, like obviously. Don't watch one video and relate to one thing and think That's it. I've got my answer, but I don't think anyone that actually is looking for it would do that. I think a lot of it is, you know, I guess considering that it's not having one trait of ADHD, that means that you have ADHD is having the whole range of them and relating to loads of different things. So I think but my opinion would be that self-diagnosis is completely valid when done in like a thorough way. So if you've like gone online, you've watched as much content as you can consume, you've gone through online test, you've like read up on stuff, and you at that point with all the information you come to the conclusion that you meet the diagnostic criteria, then I think that you are just as valid to make that decision as a doctor is obviously it kind of becomes complicated because ADHD, you can get the medication, you need a medical diagnosis for that. But I think like there are risks to people talking about the same one video and and self-diagnose in I think the greater risk is people not being able to self-diagnose because then that left in this like. Stay of beating themselves up and not know it and confusion for such a longer time.

Gemma Styles [00:39:04] Yeah, definitely. I agree with a lot of that, I think. Like you say, it is a massive privilege to be able to access a diagnosis. And I don't know, it's kind of it's making me think of. So last week on the podcast, we had Dr. Sarah Vohra, the Mind Medic, who is a psychiatrist, and I was talking with her about not about this specifically, but about kind of taking mental not not mental health in this case, but mental sort of advice on social media. And we were talking about how, you know, there's a certain element where you do, as a consumer of that media, need to exercise, you know, some critical thinking and kind of go into some of those posts. Like if you see a post from someone who has ADHD talking about symptoms and you go past it and say, Oh, that sounds like me, you kind of need to be thinking to yourself. Was this a problem for me before? Like, is this is this answering like a problem that I've actually been having? Or am I just, like, kind of relating to something which isn't really an issue for me? Like that one particular trait that I might have is not causing their problem. Yeah, I'm kind.

Ellie Middleton [00:40:13] Of for sense.

Gemma Styles [00:40:14] Think whether it is something that you need to really dig in to. It's hard to say as well because. As much as we say, you know, you can do research and try the absolute best you can to to figure these things out, even like we were talking about earlier, where we were overdiagnosed or possibly misdiagnosed with different parts of, you know, different mental health conditions. For example, there are traits of ADHD, which you might read online that very well could be confused with other things. So as you say, in an ideal world, we would all be able to access the professionals who could 100% give us the answers to these things. As it is, we can't. But I think if you go into go into it with, you know, as much critical thinking as you can muster, and then if you think you've found your answer and what you're doing with that information is, you know, reading self-help articles or like trying some small behaviour changes, that's not going to do you any harm. But if that really helps someone who isn't able to access a psychiatrist, for example, then yeah, I think the harm, as you say, yet the risk of harm is fairly low for someone doing that as opposed to what the alternative might be.

Ellie Middleton [00:41:28] Yeah, I think it's it's something that I think a lot of people face as well when talking up online. Like I get so many comments, especially on like Tik Tok where I like do I like a relatable post about one one trait or one like the thing that I experience and there'll be a comment like, This doesn't make you autistic. And I'm like, No, I'm well aware that this doesn't make me autistic. This is just one of my experiences as an autistic person. And I think it's like, yeah, finding that level of like just because it's not that one experience, that means that you have ADHD. It's. That might be something that you experience as a person that has ADHD, like one of 100 experiences. So I think with that critical thinking, it's like, yeah, it's like if you're seeing one video and you're like, that sounds, that sounds about right. Or if you're literally seen over and over again and you're like, No, seriously, this is like explaining my whole entire life. And that's like two completely different situations.

Gemma Styles [00:42:21] Yeah, I agree. Next question from Emma, who says, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and haven't told many people. How did you tell your friends and family that you have ADHD and what was their reaction?

Ellie Middleton [00:42:32] I think I was so obsessed with have find an answer before I found it that that was like, yeah, it was almost like a crucial truth about it. So I didn't really have this problem of like feeling concerned to tell people because yeah, I was like in that low place and I was like desperately searching for I think my hyper fixation became my own mind. Like, I was literally, like, desperately reading stuff and watching videos and consuming. Like, I became obsessed with this idea that, you know, this is the answer for me. So kind of in the I had already spoken to like my friends and family, my my partner at the time would literally say to me, like, can we just talk about something else? Like, because I was so consumed and it was almost like, yeah, once I got to that point, I didn't have to worry about telling other people because I'd already spoken about it. And I think because I'd already been vocal about like anxiety in the past, like all my family knew that I had anxiety. They knew that I'd dropped out of school, they knew the struggles I'd had. So it was almost like a positive thing of like, Oh, I know why all that stuff happens now, rather than being like something that I'm like, Oh, I'm nervous to tell them because, you know, it's something that they're not going to expect. Like it was almost like a solution to a problem rather than a problem in itself. And I do I do understand that people do feel a bit nervous. There is still kind of a stigma around things like these. And I think especially like employers, people are always worried about telling because it's like, Oh, I don't want my employer to think that I'm not capable of my job or stuff like that. I think it's important to remember that you don't owe anyone anything. So if you don't feel comfortable sharing that information with somebody, you don't have to like, that's so it's up to you who you want to share it with. And I think it's important. Like it's one of those kind of classic things of like the people that mind that matter, the people that matter don't mind. Like I think anybody that knows you and loves you and cares about you is going to be happy. They're not even going to not mind. They're going to be actively happy for you that you've got cancer and you've got like the information that you can now go and help make life better for yourself. You know, they're not going to be like, oh, you know, you're still the same human. Like, nothing changes. You're not being given a new brain that's like faulty or whatever. You've just got a name for the brain that you've had that your whole life. So yeah, I think you can feel scary and like hopefully as more people are talking about it, that stigma will be kind of lessened and it won't feel like you won't have to worry about people judging you because they will hopefully have more information to not judge you and to know that it's not a bad thing at all. But yeah, I think kind of just being being careful with who you do share it with. If you are feeling a bit uncertain about it, you know, don't go to somebody that you don't feel like is going to support you and kind of first turn to the people that you can trust and that you know, that will support you and kind of get your confidence in sharing it with them first, I guess. And yeah, I guess. Remember that. Remember that? Nothing's changed. You're not you know, you're not suddenly a different person just cause you've got a name for the thing that's been going on your whole life. You're just. Yeah, it's like a solution to the problem of not knowing rather than a problem in itself.

Gemma Styles [00:45:46] Yeah, definitely. I really like that way of looking at it. I think especially Emma, because you've said you were recently diagnosed as well. I mean, for some people like like you yourself, like you might have been talking about it already, but if it is a really recent diagnosis for you, I might just take some time for you to kind of come to terms with them, process yourself as well. It might not be that, you know, in six months time or years time or two weeks time, like you might feel much more like you want to talk about it. But I think I was quite differently from you. I didn't didn't really talk about it much beforehand apart from with. So it was one of my best friends was actually the person who first sent me like someone's video who was talking about having ADHD and was like, This really sounds like you because she obviously knew me so well and kind of knew. Yeah, all of the like horrible things I said to myself in my brain that I didn't tell anyone else. And I'd spoken to my mum already as well and kind of broached that a little bit because as part of getting a diagnosis, I, the psychiatrist, had encouraged me to do that because you go back and kind of answer questions about what you're like now as an adult, what you were like as a child, like, can you get someone to talk to you about that and kind of see what we what make sense and what doesn't? Makes sense and all the rest of it. So I feel like for me there were a couple of people who I'd sort of spoken to during the process. And then when I actually got that diagnosis, I sent a text just to like a couple of like my closest, like family members and that like they were just really supportive. I kind of centres and this is what's been going on for me. This is why I looked into it. This is what happened and this is how I feel about it. So kind of like give them a bit of an overview and not just like, hello. It's if I think if you give someone a reason to say like, this is why this has happened, this is what happened, and then, you know, this is my reaction to it. It kind of gives them a platform to like know how to talk.

Ellie Middleton [00:47:42] About the.

Gemma Styles [00:47:43] Context. So I feel like if you go in called yeah, if you kind of just say to someone out of the blue like, Oh, by the way, I've got ADHD, which I mean, if that's how you want to do it, of course that's your right at the same time. But I think a lot of people wouldn't you know, this is something that we've obviously learnt more about, but a lot of people wouldn't know that much about it. So they wouldn't know whether to say, you know, I'm sorry or like well done or whatever. I was like with a bit of context, I feel like my family were literally like, congratulations. I'm like really proud of you for like going after it. Like, my mum sent me flowers. It was so sweet. Like, I think if you give people a bit of the background information that you have probably spent so long digging up for yourself, it might just make the make up process a little bit easier.

Ellie Middleton [00:48:29] Yeah, it definitely makes sense.

Gemma Styles [00:48:30] If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at good influence GST and you can email the podcast. Ah, good influence pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommend us? Something to read, something to listen to, and something to watch?

Ellie Middleton [00:48:55] Yeah, I actually found this really hard because I think it's the same thing as well, that it's like the information isn't out there in like the technical places. It's on other people to like, be the translators of how to show up in women. But something to read. I would recommend ADHD and A to Z. My lovely friend and ADHD coach Lianne has just republished that and I've actually written the forward for it, so I'm really excited. But that for me, reading now was like so many things where you kind of have those mini lightbulb moments where you're like, Oh yeah, it's like all the things that you haven't like clicked before and then you read through it and you're like, Oh, that explains a lot. Likes things that. So I would definitely recommend that to read, to listen to some more of my lovely friends. I have an Instagram account called I Am Paying Attention, which was a huge part of me. Learning about myself and having those things to relate to. And they ran a podcast where they kind of chat about all things being a neurodivergent woman. So I would definitely recommend checking the account, our listeners podcast and something to watch. I actually was going to say like other Neurodivergent creators, because I think for me that was the thing that, you know, that wasn't there's no kind of like professional resources out there that hit me in the same way as hearing somebody that I could relate to, explain something in a way that it showed up for them. So I think like, yeah, listen to other women that have going through the same experience and talk to the people. And, you know, I think looking for the people with ADHD that are creating content is a good way to kind of have that translation of maybe a black and white thing that didn't relate to you as much to be in like a moment in life that you can relate to. So yeah, I would say absorb as many kind of creatives as you can.

Gemma Styles [00:50:46] Thank you for listening and thank you, Ellie, for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using and if you've got an extra little minute, you can leave a rating on a review as well. Your views make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week.