S04E09 Transcript: Dr Sam Akbar on Stress and Resilience

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Gemma Styles [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where I welcome our guests to discuss their experiences, answer your questions and teach us something You. This week we're talking about stress and resilience. The difference between stress and anxiety, managing stresses that we can't get rid of and how we adapt and recover after particularly tough times. So joining me this week is Dr. Sam Akbar. Sam, is a clinical psychologist, trauma specialist, and as will make perfect sense now, you've heard the theme for this week's episode is also the author of a book called Stressilient: How to Beat Stress and Build Resilience. She also found newsletter The Mindful Minute, providing busy women with quick and practical tools to help them manage their stress and feel happier. So we're going to talk about stress today. Well, stress and resilience, but let's start with stress. How as a professional person would you define stress and how is it different from, say, when we might talk about something like anxiety?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:01:25] Okay. So think I stress is when you feel like you cannot cope with the demands being placed on you, your ability, your you feel that your ability to cope with things or manage things is beyond what your coping skills are. That's how I think about stress. I'd say anxiety is I would describe that as more as how you feel in your body. Mm hmm. And so you can be stressed without being anxious.

Gemma Styles [00:02:00] Yes.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:02:01] It can be stressful being anxious. Anxiety is a part of a response maybe to something you perceive as frightening. And your heart races and your muscles clench and all the fight or flight response. And along with that comes with a constellation of thoughts about anxiety. So I'd see them as different that way. Anxiety could be a response to stress, but not necessarily.

Gemma Styles [00:02:25] Interesting. Yeah, because I mean, that was kind of a place I wanted to start because when I think about the word stress, I feel like it kind of has different forms immediately in my head because I think, you know, day to day we might think about stress and it might be, you know, I've had a stressful day. At the end of the day is something you might say, and people can kind of imagine that feeling for themselves. But in terms of you as being somebody who works on stress, kind of like clinically and medically. As you say, thinking about anxiety. I kind of know what that feels like in my body, and I think I could kind of list sort of symptoms of that. But thinking about stress, that is quite a different feeling. So when it comes to kind of diagnosing someone with stress, how exactly do you go about that?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:03:19] Well, I guess you would think more. I would think more in terms of anxiety, in inverted commas disorders rather than stress disorders. Actually, what I spend most of my clinical time doing is working on post-traumatic stress disorder. Yeah, So but what I've written about more generally is feeling stress in everyday life. So how would you. I wouldn't say, oh, you know, you're you're a bit stressed. You need this. I'd be looking for more like, well, what is the anxiety? It could be PTSD or it could be OCD, it could be generalised anxiety disorder. There are lots of different anxiety disorders. Mm hmm. So the and they follow a pattern of how you might feel in your body or how you might think about things or what things you might avoid. I guess what I would say more generally about stress is I think you could. For example, I would say I can go on holiday and maybe not be stressed, but I can feel anxious. Hmm. Right. And maybe some people feel vice versa. So I'm just. Oh, I suppose it depends where my mind goes. They like that. So I think that I would in terms of sort of diagnosing in as much as psychologists diagnose, I think the difference I would make is that anxiety is the sort of categories of anxiety that we know about, where stress, I think, is something a sort of catchall that we use more generally for. There's a lot going on in my life and I can't cope with it.

Gemma Styles [00:05:08] Yeah. So I mean, how do you start to work on stress if it's things like Because what I would imagine is, you know, if you're talking to someone and you realise, you know, they've got a lot of stress in their life that they feel they're not coping with. I feel like a lot of immediate advice I guess, that you would probably get is things like, you know, what's the circumstance that's causing you stress change the circumstance kind of, but how do we start to deal with stress when you can't change the source of the stress? So, I mean, and that my mind immediately goes to things like long term illness or, you know, things like someone's living situation that they wouldn't be able to immediately change. How do those longer term sources of stress, how do we start to deal with those completely?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:06:02] Well, the first thing I think and I sort of say it at the top of my book, which is I can't get rid of stress for you. Mm hmm. And no one else can either. If you think about. Life is full of stressful situations that are often out of our control, and often things can seem stressful. You know, you could be doing what Jemmy could be doing a big event, and there's a lot to prepare for and it's taking up loads of your time. And then you've got like some, you know, you've got to go and see some family member. You've got a friend who's in crisis. There's a lot of stress, right? That's not to say you you would not want to do your big event, right? You'd still want to go off and do it, but there could be just lots of things going on. So I can't. And you wouldn't want to get rid of all of those things out of your life. They are part of life, so I can't get rid of stress and I don't think anyone can get rid of it. And I think part of it is about expectation. So the problem I think comes when, yeah, there are all these events that we can't control and that are part of sometimes of living life, a rich and meaningful life. So I will always feel a bit stressed like, is my dad okay? Is my daughter okay? And I wouldn't take that away because I love them. And that's part of my life. So I can't get rid of that. I think that the problem comes when you start thinking, I should not feel this way. I don't want to feel this way. Right? Or I shouldn't be thinking like this. I or you don't get really caught up with. I can't cope with it. I'll never managed. I'm not a person who can manage or it's all going to go wrong. And you get stuck in certain patterns of thinking. And then alongside that, maybe you're starting to feel quite anxious or having lots of difficult feelings in your body, whatever feelings they are, and you start trying to push them away. Mm hmm. And so one of the questions, I guess, that you might come to when you've got a really difficult life situation is rather than saying to yourself, What can I do to stop feeling this way? Is to ask yourself, what am I willing to feel in order to live the kind of life I want? So can I make room for these really difficult feelings?

Gemma Styles [00:08:41] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:08:42] Instead of saying, How do I stop feeling this way? And that, for me, is quite a fundamental shift in how you relate to how you think about things or feel about things.

Gemma Styles [00:08:55] Definitely. I mean, having you kind of ask that question and. I think it is quite a difficult question. I mean, straight off the bat, I mean, we're not you know, we're not in a therapy session where I'm having therapy about something I'm stressed about. But I think that it definitely would be quite a big reframing for me, I think, to kind of look at those feelings of stress around a situation and kind of say, What am I willing to fail? I guess the example you gave of, you know, say you were stressed or anxious about a big event coming up sort of thing. That I guess is an example of while I'm willing to feel that level of stress because.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:09:34] Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:09:35] You know, I want to do the thing like that, that's what the outcome is going to be.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:09:39] Or I'm willing to make room for anxiety or I'm willing to may or may be. You mentioned about having a long term illness. Quite often it might be about the clients I work with or refugees with post-traumatic stress disorder who survived. Torture or sexual violence or war. So their lives are not as they once were.

Gemma Styles [00:10:05] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:10:05] And they're all really, as you would expect, very difficult feelings and emotions that that come up. And I think some of the work that we do around that is asking. In the face of this awful suffering.

Gemma Styles [00:10:22] Mm hmm.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:10:23] That you did not choose. In which you were a victim. You didn't want this. Didn't ask for this. How do you what kind of person do you want to be in the face of this suffering? Mm hmm. Because that gives you. What are your values? What values do you want shown in the face of your suffering, both to yourself and to others and to the world? And that's a different reframe as well. It's about saying, Well, this thing has happened and I can't change it. How do I want to be in the face of this, this suffering, this really difficult moment? You might maybe you're you know, if you're caring for an elderly parent or relative, maybe there's no that's something you're going to have to do. So how do you want to do it? How do you want to conduct yourself? What are the values you want to bring in you in the way that you care for that person? Does that does that make sense? Like you can kind of bring to those interactions a kind of quality? So do I want to go? I love mom. Here's your cup of tea. I'm out the door now. Gulp. Open you are. Or do you want to sort of, you know, come in and sort of say, well, actually, the things that are important to me, it's just showing love or kindness or playfulness. Mm hmm. And how can I bring that into those interactions? Because you are in that's something you are in control of. You're not in control of often situations around you, but you are in control of what you say and what you do. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:12:07] Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's so many obviously you're talking about the work that you do, particularly with refugees and PTSD in particular. Another example we just talked about is, you know, maybe illness in your family, all that, you know, whether that's your own illness, these are these are obviously things that they're very different circumstances. You know, we might also talk about people who don't have that kind of level of impactful sort of it might be lower level, stressful, a kind of day to day things, you know, And we all have different combinations of those that show up at different times, all that different ways to approach those different. Types of stress, if you like. Or is it? Is it generally the same for me?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:12:55] I feel like. It's the same whether you're looking at something really huge in your life or it's I've had a really bad week and lots of very difficult things have happened, I would say, because I do a lot of these techniques on myself. I'd say it whether I've had a really just kind of lots of low level stress over the week or a really big problem. I'm doing this similar things.

Gemma Styles [00:13:24] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:13:26] And so I think what I like about the approach I write about in my book is it's it's kind of it feels to me universal that these are things you can use with low level stress and high level stress.

Gemma Styles [00:13:40] Okay, So let's talk about your book. So stressed aliens, obviously, we're talking about stress. And I did say it. We'll move on. And also talk about resilience is obviously the other half of your stress alien as opposed to.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:13:54] One of my made up words.

Gemma Styles [00:13:56] Well, I love a make up. What post Did you talk to us a little bit about The role of resilience and its kind of relationship to stress? Is that is that the response to the stress in your view?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:14:10] So it's all about kind of how you define things, right? So some people would say, well, resilience is you never show emotion and you just you think positively toughen up and on you get with it.

Gemma Styles [00:14:24] Like I think positivity takes hold.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:14:27] A doctor tells it civility. I know good vibes only. Yeah. So that's one way of people thinking what resilience is. For me, that isn't what it is at all. And I think most most lots of people would agree with me on this, I think is that resilience isn't about never feeling the emotions or never having difficult thoughts or never, never getting knocked down. It's about accepting that you do get knocked down and using good skills and techniques to get back up again. And that will happen repeatedly. Unfortunately, if only we could say I've had my one bit of bad luck in life and that's it. And now I get back on. Does that sadly doesn't work that way. So resilience for me is about making room for all the difficult things that you feel when you go through a really hard time and learning to manage your mind better in those times and to. Even in the face of that to kind of. Be able to act in line with your values. That to me is resilience. So the resilience is not that you never get knocked down. Resilience is that you are able to get back up again.

Gemma Styles [00:15:48] Okay. And so what kind of tools do you discuss either with, you know, patients or clients or whatever your preferred term would be? Yeah, I'm kind of in the book. What are some of those tools and coping mechanisms that you would suggest to people?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:16:02] Okay. So I guess I sort of there are few main things. So the first is that I think is most helpful is before you really, um, start undertaking that. The first thing is a little bit of understanding how your mind works. Mm hmm. And I wish I had known this when I was, like, 25. Mm hmm. So how your mind works is that it's just in gear for fear is there to spot threats. It's there to feel like there's danger around every corner. And I used to think that this was a very abnormal thing. Yeah, but it isn't. It's actually how you're built. In evolutionary terms. It makes sense to pay attention to danger in the environment. Sure. Okay. The other part that's really important to know is that your brain has the capability to feel very fearful and then think about things that will happen in the future that might go wrong, as well as having the great ability to ruminate on what you've done wrong in the past. So you've got this kind of kind of reptilian brain, which is sort of looks for danger everywhere. Plus your sort of more recent evil brain that can sort of sort of think about things so it can judge your feelings often negatively. Yeah. Why? Why are you feeling so anxious? What a loser you are. And it can think back to previous events. It could say, Well, God, last time you tried to do that. Well, it went wrong, didn't it? I mean, do you remember why it went wrong? So you're in a conversation, rather insane conversation. And we all are seeing things how everyone is doing it.

Gemma Styles [00:17:49] So comforting to.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:17:50] Know is comforting is. And I feel like as a mental health professional, it is helpful to say these things happened to me. I found that very reassuring when I was training and I heard people say, No, it's not that I don't have my own things. Yeah, I'm not sitting here with a big cigar and a glass of whisky. And so never stress, I never have any problems whatsoever, though. I'd love you to think that is absolutely not true. Especially you can see the pile of washing I'm probably sitting in.

Gemma Styles [00:18:25] I mean, that's highly relatable as far as. Yeah, so, but.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:18:29] So, you know, kind of that the idea that we're all doing it, we're all thinking about, you know, obsessing about the future, ruminating about the past catastrophizing. And our brains are built to do that. And I wish I had known that earlier because I used to think, why can't I just I really remember having this thought when I was in my twenties, which is why am I not happy all the time?

Gemma Styles [00:18:54] Oh, my God, Yes.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:18:55] Did you have that?

Gemma Styles [00:18:56] I mean, so that this is the thing. I will relate to this a lot as well. And it's kind of a threw out while throughout most of my twenties, to be honest, that kind of like ups and downs I had through depression and anxiety. Well, but depression particularly in that sense, is kind of going through different sort of treatments and kind of being on anti-depressants in the past. And like, those questions do really come up and it's kind of like, what is the goal and is it to feel okay or I think often kind of more towards the beginning when you just feel quite sad all the time? The aim is to kind of feel happy all the time. And I feel like, you know, the further you get through life, I think it is one of those things that annoyingly people say, you know, this kind of the wisdom that comes with age is you realise that that is never going to happen, to be happy all the time, and if you stop aiming for it, it's so much easier completely.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:19:50] Isn't it so counterintuitive? Stop trying to be happier and you might be happier. Yeah, but somewhere along the line we have grown up thinking that's what will happen.

Gemma Styles [00:20:00] Mm hmm.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:20:02] And, oh, it was. It's a shock. Then you're not going to be happy all the time.

Gemma Styles [00:20:07] Yeah, I think the less you expect or aim to be happy as a consistent state, the more I have found that you appreciate the times that you are happy.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:20:20] Yes. And I think how you define happiness is really important. So there are different kinds of happiness. And do you do do you feel so? I think what I felt maybe we all do in Yonkers, what you're craving is that kind of high happiness, that sort of hedonistic happiness of being in a club and all your friends and you having a great time and you know, that has a lot. Maybe it's not true, but it probably has a time stamp on it like this forever. But then loads of people are now going to ring in and say All No, it does. And you're just sad to go out anymore. Which is also entirely true.

Gemma Styles [00:21:03] Again, highly relatable.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:21:05] So I guess there's that kind of happiness. And then there's a kind of contentment. Happiness. I think that's the real kind of pitfall, is thinking that it's not normal to feel any other way.

Gemma Styles [00:21:23] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:21:24] And I think that's where it's useful to know that your brain is kind of evolved to be a bit negative. Yeah. Makes sense. And I think that would have really helped me. And that's one of the things I really write about in the book, because I think it's it's such a useful starting point. Mm hmm. So how are you built? How is your brain built? So that's that's one thing I think is helpful in that idea of resilience. Yeah. The second thing I wrote about is kind of how you can sink better. And that doesn't mean having more positive thoughts by any means, because that isn't the answer. Right. The more you try to think, not think about something negative, the more it will bounce back in your face.

Gemma Styles [00:22:12] Yeah, the whole. Don't think about a pink elephant thing, right?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:22:15] Yes. Yes. My, I'm sort of into white bears, so that's my thing I gave to the white bear. But pink elephants, you know, whatever you like, whatever funny coloured animal you like, you can do it with. So, you know, the idea that you try and push that pink elephant away and not think about not think about it, it will come back not only more frequently, but also with more intensity. Mm hmm. So the more you try to say, Oh, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm not struggling. I'm not struggling. I'm not struggling. The more it's going to bounce back more. And the answer to that actually isn't to stand in front of the mirror doing your like, I'm awesome face because it does it doesn't work effectively. Sometimes. It doesn't. You know, some people find that helpful, but it, I think is problematic if that's your only thing for me. And the way I approach it, the way to manage it better is to change your relationship with those thoughts. And so you look not whether they're true or not, and you don't try and outrun them with your positivity because your brain is always is cleverer than you are. It's going to get the better of you. And the answer for me is to learn to see those thoughts for what they are. They are thoughts that go through your mind and to acknowledge them as such. So, you know, to treat the thought, I'm a massive loser. In the same way that you might treat. I need to buy printer ink.

Gemma Styles [00:24:00] Okay.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:24:02] And that feels like a massively for people. But I can honestly tell you I feel like that that ability to change how you relate to your thoughts really helps people. So if I if I asked you if you want to do an example, do you want to do an example?

Gemma Styles [00:24:20] Sure.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:24:21] Okay. Okay. So if I ask you to come up or whoever's listening might come up with a thought that's really boxy. One Pick a judgement about yourself. So my quite freak from one is I'm a failure. That kind of.

Gemma Styles [00:24:39] Thing. Oh, my God. I mean, I love you so much already. I hate even hearing me figure by yourself. Okay, So mine would be okay. One that I really struggle with and. I'm probably going off topic already, but I have slightly struggled last week, but still is the fact that I am lazy lazy. Okay. Which is now like very tied to what I now know is ADHD. But that's something that I really be okay for. And if I know that I've got things to do and kind of just get a bit overwhelmed by end up doing none of it. It's the thought that I'm lazy that I really struggle with.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:25:13] Okay, so mustn't nickname you, lazybones, then. All right, Sigmund, just really bring up that thought. I'm lazy for it. Just so just really get it up in your face. Really. Think, you know, I have got so much debt, I'm not getting it done. I'm lazy. So I really want you to feel like it's there.

Gemma Styles [00:25:36] Oh, yeah. I'm very uncomfortable right now.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:25:38] Are you uncomfortable? I'm so pleased. That's what we like in therapy. Okay, so you're uncomfortable. I'm delighted. So you're thinking I'm lazy. Okay, So really points that. And now I just want you to stop saying I'm lazy. You just say. I'm having this thought. I'm lazy.

Gemma Styles [00:26:00] Okay.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:26:02] What does that do to that thought? I'm lazy. I'm having the thought. I'm lazy.

Gemma Styles [00:26:10] I feel like it would suddenly kind of. Remove it from May.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:26:18] To.

Gemma Styles [00:26:18] Distant? Kind of. Yeah, I kind of. It feels like. This is very thorough, but it felt like it was right in my chest and now it feels like it's about 20 centimetres in front of me.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:26:30] Love it. Okay, so it's a bit of distance from me. Yeah. So now if you want to go. Bit Jedi level. You ready? You ready?

Gemma Styles [00:26:41] Oh, I don't know. Let's see, shall we?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:26:43] You ready to kind of really get into your deep Jedi training now?

Gemma Styles [00:26:46] Yup.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:26:47] I'm like, Okay. All right, Take it a step further by saying I'm noticing. I'm having a thought. Though. I'm lazy.

Gemma Styles [00:26:58] Mm hmm. Okay. And now suddenly I'm a person who's in control. Because I'm aware of the situation. Stop. Make you stop making. Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:27:08] Does that does that feel like it sort of goes a bit further away? Even more. I'm noticing. I can just notice that I have that thought.

Gemma Styles [00:27:16] Yeah. I mean, I think it would. I'd say it feels like a little bit more cerebral in nature rather than.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:27:22] Okay. Yes, I am more judgemental.

Gemma Styles [00:27:24] Yeah. Like I'm now. Okay. So if we said it's moved in front of me now, you're kind of like looking down at it.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:27:30] Okay, there's more distance.

Gemma Styles [00:27:32] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:27:33] Okay, so let's say you're having that thought. I'm lazy and you and you have got loads of things to do. Mm hmm. Right. When you've got that distance, does it make it more or less likely you could engage in the things now that you need to get done.

Gemma Styles [00:27:50] More for sure. Right. Yeah, I can. I can see that already. And it does. It kind of. I, I feel like I talked about this in. Maybe quite a different way when I did therapy some years ago, and that was something that was very much geared towards kind of. Anxiety. So rather than even being thoughts about myself, it would be, you know, kind of worrying about X, Y, Z thing happening and that kind of like thought labelling as an exercise as we did. Yes, I did find helpful and I think yeah, that it makes a lot of a lot of sense to me only by experience. But yeah, being able to and I mean it doesn't and always and it's not like you learn this thing and you can always do it instantly. But yeah, being able to kind of look at a thought and be like almost kind of like writing a list of what thoughts you're having like takes them off you.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:28:45] Yeah, exactly. And there are different ways of, of, of doing things, but. The aim is always to see as thoughts. They're not directives. They're not commandments carved in stone. Right. These even these really painful judgements about ourselves. Can we treat them as. You know, I'm lazy and I've got to stop at Tesco on the way home. You know, it's that kind of level of can we learn? And honestly, it sounds so impossible. And I remember when I first learned about this, I was like, Oh my God, if I'm not my thoughts, who am I?

Gemma Styles [00:29:26] Oh, God. Okinawa.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:29:28] Yeah. And I was like, I remember being on a plane to Trinidad. I almost wanted to jump up in the all together. Oh. Is Eddie what do you do?

Gemma Styles [00:29:37] People know this sounds very stressful.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:29:41] But I think it's just about sort of beginning to. And as you practice it more, you begin to say, okay, Oh, hey, my brain is off on one today. Mm hmm. It's absolutely. I'm I'm. Wow. It's really got something to say about this today. Whereas before, I think previously, I would have really got caught up in that. And now it's not like it makes me feel good, But I can say, okay, this is it helped me to get really caught up in that. Mm hmm. So I think that So I guess, you know, that is one technique I cover that I really like. But there are lots of others in the book about kind of having this different relationship with your thinking, not just kind of get rid of it, but so you can do what's important because you've got this space.

Gemma Styles [00:30:26] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:30:27] To do that. So that's one. So I guess it's managing your mind, having a different relationship with your thoughts and then the other parts. I think they'll various parts of the thing that I think we've touched on a little bit already but is important is that idea of emotions and how you can feel better. And what I mean by feel better is how can you experience your emotions, will have a relationship with your emotions rather than just feel good things. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, I'm one of those people that only wants to be happy. I don't like feeling sad. This is. I'm in. I could possibly be in the wrong job. I don't know what's giving me that clue right now, but I kind of and I want I try to be open about that because I think it's helpful to to hear. The other people find Emma, even professionals find emotions really difficult. Yeah. I'm not sitting around waiting of sadness. Come to me. I can make space for you. Yeah, I'm. I'm like, I'll hide under a blanket till it's all gone away sometimes. But I think what what is helpful is to learn that you can make room for those really difficult emotions. They won't kill you. I think I might honestly have once believed emotions could finish you off. Right, Right. And. And it does feel like that, doesn't it? Yeah. You do feel sometimes really intense emotion feels incredibly uncomfortable.

Gemma Styles [00:31:59] Mhm. Yeah. Definitely I think it's kind of is making me think of, you know, you're kind of saying you don't want to be sad is making me think about TV. I mean, a lot of things make me think about TV. So I'm I'm someone who I'm I wouldn't go and watch a sad film for fun. Like, I don't. And again, maybe that's the depression experience. I'm not in the habit of attracting sad feelings into my life. However, my probably, hopefully my most common and worst catchphrase that drives my boyfriend up the wall is that I like watching kind of drama and thriller kind of TV shows, but I sit there while I'm watching it saying, This is so stressful, but I just feel and I say it all the time. But that's always You stressed that I'm, you know, willingly putting myself under. So it's all.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:32:52] I guess you're in control of it.

Gemma Styles [00:32:54] Yes. So that's that's the kind of thing where. Yeah, you look at it and that's why I think it's it's really interesting to talk about these kind of coping mechanisms as well, because most of the stress that comes into our life, we don't ask for.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:33:09] No. So what do you do with that, then? I did it.

Gemma Styles [00:33:14] Before I even got it. Yeah. So that I mean, that's why I think. That this conversation will hopefully be helpful and kind of the stuff that you can't get rid of. How do you deal with that? Because I think I do think it's it's quite common in the kind of like mental health anxiety especially to have conversation. And people who don't understand depression very well will also use this for depression and kind of act as if everything is situational. And by changing your circumstances or environment or situation, act like that's really easy. And what we should be aiming for is to kind of, Oh, well, that thing's causing you stress. We'll just get rid of it then. And that isn't how life works. And I think that's why I'm grateful to you for, you know, speaking to us today. And how do you face those things head on rather than just, you know, pretending they're not happening?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:34:02] Yeah. And you just you probably couldn't. Well, you could try and control those things, couldn't you? But it would potentially quite curtail your life. And actually, what do you do? Because if you want to have relationships with other people in any way, yeah. There will always be times when some of those relationships will entail stress or challenges. So I think one of the things that, you know, to talk about is making, you know, thinking about what am I willing to fail in order to live the kind of life I want to work? What difficult emotions am I willing to feel and how can I learn to make room for those? Yep. And some of that there's some practices in there about how you kind of able to do that and how you can kind of see yourself. I like this way of thinking as a place where emotions happen. Mm hmm. But not that you all that emotion. So I've been bleating on in the last podcast I was on about this since it's all, you know, over my Instagram feed, but it's this idea that I like that you're the sky and that your emotions are the weather. And sometimes it's sunny and sometimes there's a tornado, but you're not harmed as the sky by those emotions. You can make room for that. And sometimes I think some of these things sound a bit cheesy. I get it. But actually, when you start to think like that, it is really quite liberating.

Gemma Styles [00:35:32] Yeah, no, and I love that. And that was I actually shared part of that clip onto Instagram stories when I was asking, Oh, yes. To send in questions for. Yeah. And, you know, obviously people were sending questions, but some people were just replying to that story saying, I love the way that she's talking about that. I think that is a really powerful thing, too. I think. I mean, remind me, no.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:35:53] One said I had a bad hair day. I was having a very bad hair day. That's what I'm worried. That's my stress.

Gemma Styles [00:35:58] Nobody's that part. Nobody's okay. But yeah, it was I.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:36:02] Was just having a thought. Then I was having a bad hair day. Maybe I should do that.

Gemma Styles [00:36:06] So I think about it. Just take it away from you. But, yeah, no, I think that's. That's kind of a nice. Placed, you know. And the section before we move on to Q&A is.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:36:16] Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:36:17] I thought that was a really nice way of looking at us and the sky's still there and it's fine. After those after the mother has passed, I thought that was I think it's it's almost quite a common piece of imagery that people talk about in terms of mental health, the whole kind of like Stormy Skies thing. And you understand why? Because I think you talk about stormy skies and most people can kind of connect an emotion to that. But yeah, I thought I thought it was quite it was a quite different way of looking at it, the way that you were phrasing it.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:36:48] I think it's it's about just changing your relationship a bit with your think your thoughts and your emotions so that you can. Showed the kind of values that are important to you. And that's, I guess, the really the third really important part of things is being able to. Why are you doing all this? Not to chase happiness always, but to show that you are to show yourself that you can act in line with what's important to you. It may be using that as a barometer of happiness rather than a internal state. So I feel. Full of the joys that I would feel if I were dancing barefoot on a beach in Goa, maybe occasionally swapping that out for. You know, today I. I had an interaction with someone and I displayed the values that are important to me.

Gemma Styles [00:37:51] Every week my guests and I will be answering your questions on. The first one comes in from Luis when he says, I sometimes feel like stress defines my whole life. When I'm stressed at work or school, I can't seem to relax at home, and when I'm too stressed and have a huge to do list, my body or mind tends to do a complete shutdown. Even basic hygiene seems like a huge task at this point, and I tend to skip it. So my question is, do you have any tips for a healthy way to cope with stress and how to avoid those shutdowns?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:38:22] Gosh, poor Luis. That sounds like you're under a lot of stress, if even kind of basic things of looking after yourself are falling.

Gemma Styles [00:38:32] I have to say, when I read that question, that sounds more like burnout than stress to me.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:38:36] So I feel like, yeah, that's that's you're heading quite hard into not looking after yourself. And unfortunately, it's those things that fall. You know, sleep eating well fall out of of the repertoire very quickly.

Gemma Styles [00:38:55] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:38:56] What I would say to Luis is actually where is there room. What can she control? At home and at school or wherever she's working to make to reduce some of those things? And what situations can she change? Yes. Where can she ask for help?

Gemma Styles [00:39:18] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:39:19] Kay says she's she's got so much to do. That's the other thing. I think one. I wonder whether you might. Whether she might find another book helpful, which is called 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman. Which is basically.

Gemma Styles [00:39:35] Mm hmm.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:39:36] It's brilliant. And it's not so much about stress management. It's more about kind of how we will never get it all done. Yeah, you will never get it all done. And I wonder if Louise is. And I might be wrong. I don't know. But she feels like. There's so many things to do and they have to all be done, or at least or even done well. What what other things that that that can be ditched.

Gemma Styles [00:40:01] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:40:01] Wet and those things that can be ditched. As long as no one dies, they can be ditched.

Gemma Styles [00:40:07] Sure.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:40:08] It feels that it can't. But she's so at the edge of kind of being able to cope with that right now. There's just she can't as an even got time to really look after her basic needs and then she's shutting down because she's exhausted, as you say. It sounds like she's burning out. So I think trying to, I think, get some help. Right. Number one, I think this is a lot to for her to deal with on her own. Yeah. Whether she gets that professional speaks to someone about where is there wiggle room to reduce some of the things that are hot on her plate. Because I think she has the cheat sheet. Mhm. It would help her if she could reduce some of that. Then when she can reduce some of that then she can start managing the other stuff a bit better. But I think the first thing I would do if I were just trying. What can I, what can come off my plate. Yeah. And start prioritising some of her really basic needs.

Gemma Styles [00:41:05] Yeah. Thank you for. I hope that was helpful to Louise. And yeah, anyone else who might feel in a similar situation. It's. Yeah, it's one of these things that's difficult, isn't it, when you are a doctor. But we're talking on a podcast. It can't, it can't be as super specific. But I love, quite frankly, that I'm able to, you know, pass on some of these questions because you. Yeah, some sometimes it's, you know that might be the first step to.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:41:31] Absolutely.

Gemma Styles [00:41:32] To being a being able to Yeah. Sort of see that that help is needed so I hope that was helpful. Next question is from Teresa. And she says this question is about her daughter, who is 17. And she says, My daughter, while she's a kickass independent girl, her resilience is close to zero. She gives up and crumbles whenever things get too tough. And I find it really heartbreaking. My question is, how do I support her through this? She's always been like it, and it's only getting worse. With A-levels and her driving test coming up.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:42:08] I think maybe helping her draw out the times when she has got three things and so there will be times when she's crumbled. But has she? How has she got through them? Hmm. And to help her kind of start trusting in her own strengths. And they will be there, but she can't see them. So just I think one of the things might be to go back over the last few years and just try and work out where have there been times when she's felt more capable and what was you know, what did she do that helped her feel more capable? What was she thinking? What was she feeling? And just helping her really kind of hone in on some of those occasions where she has been more resilient so she can kind of take control of that narrative that I'm not resilient. Yeah. And and going forward to to help her keep building that up. I'd be interested to know what this that the lady could ask is whether. Do other people come to her rescue a bit to help her out of that as well? And whether, you know, how can she take more control of the situation? So she got A-levels and and her driving test coming up now. Some of that will be about, well, how do we plan that things are happening in a way that aren't overwhelming. But also, how can she start to change the story that I'm someone who can't cope? And the way to change that is by doing things that prove to yourself that you can cope. Yeah. Yeah. So some behavioural experiments, we call them about doing things that I can cope more than I think I can. I, I could.

Gemma Styles [00:44:01] Yeah. God, that's such an interesting answer, I think. Yeah, that is I mean, I think I've definitely had the tendency in times I've been like, um, you know, I'm sensitive, I can't cope with this sorts of thing. And I just, I feel like that's the first thing, you know, a therapist will tell you is you.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:44:15] You, you don't call it.

Gemma Styles [00:44:16] Thing because that just teaches you that. Yes, you're right. And you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Last question. It's from Matilda, who says, When you go through prolonged periods of stress, i.e. for me, surviving the pandemic while First-Time Parenting two twins born in spring 2020, do you need to do more to recover or will you be able to weather the storms and eventually just move on from a hard time? Can people be permanently damaged by very stressful events?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:44:51] I suppose it depends what you mean by permanently damaged. Right?

Gemma Styles [00:44:56] Yeah.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:44:56] So I think. Will you always feel that you went through a definite time? Yes. But what does it mean to be permanently damaged by an event? What does it mean? Does it mean you don't function in the same way? Does it mean that you feel are different? The answer to that question is a bit tricky because. It's quite idiosyncratic answer, depending on that that person what she has been through an enormous, enormously big. Stress. And I wonder if she does feel quite permanently changed by that. One thing I think is really helpful is to maybe go back and think about that time, break it into sections and write about it and help yourself process what you went through. I really do think there's a lot to be said in that because you can look through, you can write back and think about how you think thought about things, then how you think about that, that now how you're making sense of that now. Maybe there are more strengths there than you realise. But just I think that is quite a useful exercise to do when you've been through a really traumatic, stressful experience is to write about what happened in quite a lot of detail. Mm hmm. And I hope that I think that helps you make sense of your emotions. She might also be interested to read about post-traumatic growth, because actually lots of people. Yes, maybe they do feel they're changed forever, but a lot of people feel that they they grow in a more positive way because of their traumas. They find out something about themselves. They find out what they were able to cope with or what they couldn't cope with. But they learn something and they take that forward. So she might want to have a Google of post-traumatic growth if she feels like she's been through something that she struggled with. How you take that forward with you. But the first thing I do is I if I were her, I would write about it.

Gemma Styles [00:47:13] If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then you can follow us on Instagram or Twitter at Good Influence US or you can email the podcast Good Influence pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I have three things I ask every guest on, so could you please recommend us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch?

Dr Sam Akbar [00:47:35] Okay, so my something to read is a book called Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Some of your readers may have heard about that, but he was a Jewish psychiatrist who survived the concentration camps, and he talks about how people found meaning in those experiences. And it's it's a very short book. It sounds much heavier than it is, is actually really it's moving and it gives hope. And it's about how even in the worst. Worst circumstances you can possibly imagine. You're still in control of how you how you show your values. And I think it's a really valuable book. So I would read that. Okay. My thing to listen to is I guess I sort of go on, on, off with podcasts. But one thing one podcasts I do like and I think they do this well, talking about mental health things is Glennon Doyle's. We can do hard things.

Gemma Styles [00:48:46] Okay.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:48:46] Yeah, I think that there's always a an episode there that she brings a really personal element to it. Of her own vulnerabilities. But also it's very, very funny. And her honesty is very funny. She does it with her wife, who is a very famous footballer, which is also one I can't. So I would recommend that. And then the thing to watch is Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Gemma Styles [00:49:19] Okay.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:49:20] Yeah, that that's the thing to watch because I really see Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Most people who maybe that are people who haven't watched it, in which case where have you be? But it's about a high school boy. He's 70, take bunks off school and he's in real trouble If he's going to get caught and he's got a friend, he's incredibly anxious. He convinces him to bunk off school for the day. And I really want to believe I'm Ferris. But actually, I think I might be the anxious friend.

Gemma Styles [00:49:54] Who is the anxious friend in any example.

Dr Sam Akbar [00:49:57] I know I want to sort of think I'm Phoebe or Rachel in Friends, but I'm Monica, running around with coasters and putting lights on patterns. But it's just a great he's got a great line in there, which is life moves pretty fast. And if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you'll miss it. And I just love it. It's it's a sort of it's his life in a day. And it's just it's sort of really brilliant. And I think when you're feeling stressed, that's quite a great, great film to go to.

Gemma Styles [00:50:29] Thank you for listening and thank you so much. Time for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I would love you to subscribe to the podcast on which I have a platform you're using. And if you're feeling extra generous, leave us a rating and a review as well. See you next week.