S03E07 Transcript: Marie Beecham on Echo Chambers
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Gemma Styles [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who helps us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week we're talking about echo chambers. The downside of everyone being on the same page, avoiding harm, but not always avoiding discomfort, and how differing opinions can strengthen our causes. So joining me this week is Marie Beecham. Marie is a writer, public speaker and online educator who advocates for racial equity and social unity using social platforms as well as Patreon and other media. She works with individuals, businesses and general online audiences to reduce divisions amongst us by using what she calls radical compassion, starting from the most kind of basic info. When you go to look at your page in your Instagram bio, you say you talk about racial equity and social unity. Could you tell us a bit about your kind of journey to becoming an influence in this space? Like how long how have you how has this come to be your work?
Speaker 2 [00:01:23] Yeah. So it kind of happened to me out of surprise and it was summer of 2020, and I actually had a page about environmentalism because that's a subset passion of mine. And on this page about environmentalism, I posted about racial equity and it went viral. And I gained so many followers in like 24 hours. And then I kind of stumbled into this career of posts that focus on racial equity, which has always been a passion of mine. I am I grew up in an area that's 99% white, and I've always been the only black person in every classroom, in every club. And so I've always kind of had a passion for race. But as I got further and further into the racial equity space, I found that there were still issues in terms of it's almost like unity is like a dirty word, you know, like even people who want like racial reconciliation and racial harmony still are holding up walls of division, just not based on race, holding up walls and division, based on perspective, based on experience. And so I really wanted to be a voice for both equity in terms of race and also unity in terms of all sorts of social identities and social perspectives.
Gemma Styles [00:02:49] Yeah. So. Thinking then back to the beginning. How have things changed for you up to now? Because, I mean, I have followed you. I mean, it's not unlikely that I maybe followed you in that summer of 2020 when your post went viral. I actually can't remember. I mean, I follow a lot of people in the sustainability space as well, so it could well have been before. But I like a lot of white people. In the summer of 2020, when all of these big conversations were getting so much media attention.
Speaker 2 [00:03:24] Mm hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:03:26] Were obviously. Yeah. Looking to follow people who. Were offering education in that space, wanting to learn. But since that time, when your audience grew so massively. What I found really interesting about some of your most recent content is kind of what you've been talking about in terms of personal growth discussion and kind of how we deal with people we don't agree with. Yeah. So how did you move from kind of 2020 Murray to what you're talking about today?
Speaker 2 [00:04:02] Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question because some people have really noticed that shift and other people, you know, kind of flies over their head, which that's fine, too. But I would say that with my posts about racial equity gaining me this following and gaining me certain amounts of attention, I felt like I kind of ended up cornering myself in this echo chamber because the way social media works, the way that the algorithms work, is you draw the people to yourself who like what you have to say, because they'd probably be saying the same things, you know. And so you end up with a really, really uniform set of opinions, a set of ideas. And as that was happening, I, I kind of found myself feeling stuck and feeling like I wasn't allowed to say to present different ideas. And I was also in this toss up of like, man, if everybody likes what I have to say and they all agree with it already, am I really contributing anything to the conversation? Hmm. So that kind of led to trying to talk more about personal growth, trying to talk about diversity of opinion, and then trying to dish out different opinions to people who were in my audience.
Gemma Styles [00:05:17] Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've noticed. But I think. I found a really, really interesting and valuable conversation because I think it is something we're starting to become. Slightly more aware of now in I mean, possibly, as you say, because we're starting to understand a little bit more about how these algorithms and everything are actually. Affecting a huge amount of the content that we consume. I think because we become a bit more aware of that, it's kind of looking at where these things come from. Basically, I'm being interested to see what we're being fed. You use the term echo chamber, which is what? Yeah, I would I would love to talk a bit about today during this episode. But I will I will start because I think it's actually quite a good example. So when I posted saying that you were coming on the podcast and people were sending in questions for you, I'd said, you know, have you got questions about echo chambers? And I genuinely thought that, you know, 99%, the vast majority of people would know what I meant when I said echo chambers. And there were actually a lot of people who sent in questions saying, I actually don't know what you're talking about. Can you please explain what you mean by an echo chamber? So maybe we should start that before we go further. What do you mean? When you say echo chambers?
Speaker 2 [00:06:39] That is a great place to start. So by Echo Chambers, that refers to the idea of a group ending up really homogenous, like ending up with sameness of experience, of idea of opinion. And the idea is that we're all echoing each other, you know, like an echo chamber in person. Looks like getting a group of people and everything you say. Everyone's just nodding. Yeah, yep. I couldn't agree more. Couldn't have said about it myself. And Echo Chambers online look like, you know, posting something and everyone in the comments. Exactly. You get it. Yep. You said it. That's that's absolutely right. And there's something great about similarity, you know, that's really satisfying, that feels really good. But echo chambers and the idea of only surrounding yourself with people who think like you live, like you act like you has really negative effects because you're underexposed to different ideas and experiences. So when you don't have an understanding of them, they just sound terrible and awful and silly. So that's one of the negative sides. And you can really make everybody who's different from you out to be a villain. And then another negative side is that you get more sensitive to different opinions, like I'm speaking from experience when I was like, well, surrounded in my echo chamber, I mean, any different opinion, any minor infraction was really upsetting because I was so accustomed to agreement. So that's kind of what echo chamber is an echo chamber as it's this little bubble, this little community pocket of agreement that's pretty closed off to different ideas.
Gemma Styles [00:08:18] Thank you. I think that was a great explanation. Hope that helps with this thing. He wasn't sure what we were actually going to be going to be talking about in this episode. So, I mean, I've just been referencing kind of posts that you've made recently that I thought, that's a really interesting idea. Let's have Marie on the podcast. So I'm going to read one out and I quote, Setting up boundaries that you protect yourself from harm. Don't set so many boundaries that you protect yourself from discomfort and work diligently to recognise the difference. That to me I thought was quite a good. Summary almost as to say what what the problem is with existing in an echo chamber in these spaces. So when you say. But we shouldn't be completely avoiding discomfort. What do you mean by that? What should we be looking for?
Speaker 2 [00:09:12] Yeah. So in this space, I'm kind of. And there's lots of conversation about boundaries and emotional boundaries, you know, setting boundaries in relationships. And I think that's a really great thing, you know. But I think that the conversation can get really hazy when we talk about uncomfortable experiences as if they're harmful or dangerous, when in reality, they're they're not always that. Sometimes it's just a little bit awkward or a little bit unpleasant. And so when I'm talking about setting off boundaries that you don't protect, that you protect yourself from harm, I'm saying, yeah, I'm not asking anyone to, like, walk into a dangerous situation. I'm not it's not that we would be better off if we put ourselves through terrible things, but when we're so committed to protecting ourselves from harm, sometimes we count ourselves out of situations that would actually strengthen us. So, like, exposing yourself to discomfort is like if a friend, co-worker, someone expresses a different opinion on a social issue than you. You know, some my gut reaction will be that's harmful. I need out like I need out of this conversation. They're problematic. It's terrible. I need out of this conversation. I need to not talk to them. I need to protect myself from them. But maybe it's not that harmful. Maybe it's just a little bit uncomfortable. And that would actually be an opportunity to connect with them and share your idea with them. And and that's actually a really important part. You know, like if my cause is racial equity and every time someone shows a little bit of racial prejudice and I decide to cut them out of my life or run the other direction then. There's no way that I can bring about racial equity. I need to have conversations with those very people, not run from them, you know, and not hide from them. That's kind of the the idea I'm going for with discomfort is good. And that's actually where change happens. That's where that's where all the important stuff happens. So, yes, protect ourselves from harm, but we can't confuse discomfort with harm or else we're just counting ourselves out of the race.
Gemma Styles [00:11:17] Sure. I mean, I think it's probably important to note here that I feel like when we're talking about, you know, not avoiding discomfort or avoiding people with different opinions, that doesn't mean people who have actively, extremely prejudiced, unintentionally harmful.
Speaker 2 [00:11:37] Right.
Gemma Styles [00:11:38] Kind of conversations. Right. I mean, we're talking more in this space about. You know, people who who are trying. Two, I don't know, do good or be right or think they are right. But I'm maybe, you know, using slightly the wrong language or they mean well, but they just don't have the understanding of the issue. So they're not communicating as we would expect them to. Right.
Speaker 2 [00:12:01] That's an important distinction. And I think that sometimes, ah, online it can seem like this, us versus them and it can make us feel like there's so many like terrible radicals out there out to get us. And, you know, I've I've spent a long time like, you know, I'm in the racial equity space. So I learn a lot about racial injustice. I learn a lot about racial prejudice. And then I was going about in my personal life really on guard for those radical racists who are out to get me. And instead, I was just encountering nice, well-meaning people who needed to learn a little bit more, who needed to learn a little bit more how prejudice works. And we needed to learn a little bit more about what systemic racism means. And because I was like gearing up for a battle with radical racists, I was just came in throwing punches with fine people who need to learn. And I can help with that. Like that's fully within my capacity. And so that's a really helpful distinction of, yeah, I'm not talking about people who are intentionally being mean or harmful or terrible, but just good people who I might say that they're not woke enough, that they're problematic, they're whatever. But I could help them bring about that change. I could help invest in them rather than that them out of my life.
Gemma Styles [00:13:23] That's really interesting. And I think I mean, that makes me think of other conversations that I've then seen around. So what you're saying, I'm sat her nodding, but then my head's going, Well, I'm sorry, but that's more emotional labour for you to be doing. So what if you don't want to educate these people? What if someone is? You know, expressing something and you think, okay, you probably could do with learning a bit more about this issue. I wouldn't then say that, you know, it's autumn. Obviously, you you do a lot of this online education and all the rest of it, but it's not then automatically your job to educate people. So how do we deal with that when we come up against different opinions, whether that's kind of brought to us, if that's, you know, in. Maybe someone commented on our posts and thinks that something should be different. Or maybe you see a post from someone else and think.
Speaker 2 [00:14:20] Hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:14:22] I don't really agree with that. I think you should you know, you could be educated slightly more in this area. How? Yeah. How do we deal with that without just becoming completely burnt out or taking you, for example? You know, I'm sure you don't every single time want to have to be the person who is giving that education.
Speaker 2 [00:14:42] Yeah. So I mean, that's a really great point because. It's not that that's not a foreign concept to me. That's actually something I've had to navigate because, you know, you said summer of 2020, you were looking for answers, you were following people and summer of 2020, right when my post went viral. Also, everybody who had my phone number, my email, my anything was reaching out to me for personal input, personal advice in this specific situation. And I had to learn like that is not like a worthy use of my time, energy, attention. And I had to to figure out what is worthwhile for me, what is makes a far reaching impact. And, you know, where can I help? And so like personal examples and specific case by case things like I set a boundary like I'm not going to get burnt out, like solving a relational issue between two people. Rather, I want to direct my focus to something broader. But in terms of like where should emotional labour go? I think that in the past I've actually been way too stingy with like what I'm willing to do. I've been like, you know, I can't invest in you. I can't take the time, I can't teach you. And I realised that by picking the people who I have relationships with, I think that's it's something for everybody. It's like, when is it worth it to invest in people? Like if you have the relationship, like if they're your relative, if they're your friend, like if you have that depth of relationship, then I think you should have. Potentially like more more energy and more attention toward helping that person learn and learning from them. Because like, if not you, then who like you're the person for the job, you know, rather than hoping a different acquaintance comes into their life. Like, if you're to have that relationship, I think it's really helpful. But it's definitely there's no blanket statement that says, always do this, never do this. But I think that what you're saying about emotional labour, it's definitely something to consider and. And in my case, I needed to be less concerned with emotional labour because what emotional labour was costing me was really worth it because of what I gained from all of these really healthy, thriving personal relationships. Because I had taken the time to really speak with the people in my life and to really reach a place of mutual understanding. So the emotional labour, well, it does take something from you can be really, really worth it is what I learnt.
Gemma Styles [00:17:15] That's interesting. And I guess what I'm hearing you say is kind of. Yeah, there are no hard and fast rules, but that in that case, I guess is taking the time. To think about your own mental health. And if you have the capacity, don't automatically not do it. But equally, if you don't want to or don't have the capacity, it equally is not your job necessarily. So when you speak about how things have changed for you. In terms of you at one point felt like you were very sort of entrenched in these echo chambers and now you maybe don't feel like you are so much.
Speaker 2 [00:17:54] Mm hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:17:55] Practically sort of behaviourally. What has changed for you between now and then? Kind of what do you do differently in terms of what you consume or who you speak to or what does that practically look like for you?
Speaker 2 [00:18:11] That is a great question because I immediately thought of a bunch of things I practically did that helped me to, like, escape my echo chamber. I'd say. I have three things that immediately come to mind, which is escaping my echo chamber, getting a peek inside a different one and in-person real life experiences. So escaping my own echo chamber looked like consuming a lot less information from my from the same little pocket of people. So I had been shaping my whole worldview off of the few people I selected from all across the world and then just putting on whatever lens they have for the world. And I really lost myself in that, but it felt like the right thing to do. It just kind of happened. And so one of the first things I did was actually like spend a lot less time online and spend a lot less time fixating on a few specific opinions because. It was these really specific opinions on all of these different issues that in my day to day life weren't actually that relevant. But. But they became a really big part of my personality, a really big part of my identity. And it was a little bit disorienting because my online life, my social media was really severed from my reality. But I was trying to fit them together and was kind of confusing. And the other thing I did entering other echo chambers is like because like everything is an echo chamber, basically, if it's homogenous. And I wanted to understand like the other side better. So for months, I mean, I'm talking about this like you noted recently, this has actually been like a year and a half. About a year and a half ago, I took up this project of reading the best books written by people who I thought I'd totally disagree with. And I was going back and forth between like my side, their side, my side, their side. And I was reading all of these books that like, I was like, I got to hide this cover because if someone sees me reading this, like this is not good and not even like it's a terrible book, just like it was, you know, a social psychologist who has a really conservative opinion about systemic racism, a really acclaimed professor who thinks that this is what black people need to do differently. And it's like I could just write them off as terrible people, but I wanted to hear what they had to say. And there are lots of times when I'm like, Oh, that's an interesting point. Oh, okay. I don't I don't agree with that. Oh, well, I can see where they're coming from there. And that was a really helpful practise and that kind of softened me up and helped me to see. Quote unquote, the other side as like no longer terrible evil people, but good people who have been sitting in different echo chambers than I have. And and then that led to the third thing of reinvesting and going out and into relationships where people were in different echo chambers than I am, where people had different perspectives. And that that trifecta helped me to. It just lifted a burden and it helped me to feel so like just a light and free. And, you know, I been so burdened with like, oh, my gosh, half of the people in the world are terrible and they're dreadful and they're out to get me and they're them and I'm us. And doing that just made reality feel a lot less scary, made things seem a lot less dangerous, and made people seem a lot less bad. So those are some of the things I practically did.
Gemma Styles [00:21:57] That's great. Thank you. I think that. Yeah, as you said about even about, you know, like reading a book from someone who you wouldn't have thought that the idea of kind of like all hiding the cover because no one can see me reading this book. That is so I mean, when you say it like that, you kind of think. That's silly, because. Yeah, because why should you have to? But I immediately really relate to that. And you know, the idea that everyone else is kind of looking at what we're consuming as much as we are, you know, trying to trying to have some control over what we're taking in. And yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 [00:22:35] You.
Gemma Styles [00:22:35] Look at someone reading a book, you don't. I don't know. Why do we then assume that they automatically agree with everything in that book that they're reading, you know?
Speaker 2 [00:22:44] Yeah. Yeah.
Gemma Styles [00:22:45] It's even like I've, you know, thought before. Like. I mean, Twitter is what Twitter is. But like, I follow. I follow the Conservative Party in the U.K. on Twitter, and I follow them because they are the ruling party of the country that I live in. And I want to know what they're saying because they're in charge of things. But I have I heard someone say to people like, why are you following the Tories? And I was kind of like, I don't agree with what they're saying, but I want to see what they're saying because you know that yeah, in a lot of power, in a place where I live and yeah, I do know but I just thought that spoke to me a point about, about the book.
Speaker 2 [00:23:22] No, that's, that's what I relate to. Like I was afraid, you know, your fear of being associated with the other side, those ideas stops you from picking up the book because you don't want anyone to see that you're reading it. And so it further like shelters you in your only kind of ideas, you know, you don't want to be accused of agreeing with everything that, you know, they say. So how about you just don't follow along? You don't look at what they do and it furthers the problem because we're so afraid of being associated with the wrong ideas, the wrong opinions that we just we run the other direction and we hide. And what I've learnt from my experience with this journey is like it's not that I need protection from these different opinions and protection from these different ideas. I actually just need proximity to them because if I, if I'm close to these ideas and I understand them better, first of all, like that makes me a lot more useful in conversations with people who think that way. But also it makes me a lot less angry about it, you know, how can they be so delusional? It's like, no, I see where they're coming from. They're focussing on different facts than me, you know? But. That's not how I would say it, but they're not terrible people. And that's how you can you can find a common ground. You can find a middle ground. And again, that's important. If you have any kind of cause you want to communicate, like you need to know where the other side is coming from. And that's also important in terms of you mentioned mental health a little bit earlier like. Like one thing that I'm a big believer in is kind of exposure therapy. Like whatever you're really afraid of, it loses its power over you once you gain experience doing that thing. You know, if you're afraid of heights, go into a tall skyscraper and maybe heights won't be so scary. You know, if you're afraid of thunderstorms, sit outside on your porch and watch the rain fall down. But for me, I was really afraid of people who had different ideas, different experiences. I thought they were terrible and out to get me. And so I just started like going out to coffee with them and making friends and they weren't so scary. They were just different. And it opened my eyes to how I had this prejudice based on opinion and that that came about because I was so I was trying to fight against prejudice. I was trying to fight against racial prejudice. And I ended up with a different kind of social prejudice and. That's what started my whole journey, like what you've been talking about. I was like, Okay, I was trying to eliminate racial prejudice, but then I still just like, I just ended up with a different prejudice, a prejudice that's based on a different kind of disparity. And how can we eliminate prejudices altogether? So, yeah, proximity, not protection.
Gemma Styles [00:26:12] Yeah, I think I think that was such an interesting point. And I mean, I agree completely when you try and think about it. With just, you know, flat, emotionless logic. If you're trying to reach people on the other side of the aisle as they kind of say. On a different side of an argument, but you don't understand what their argument is because you haven't listened to it, then you're not going to be able to refute. And I think there is that kind of despairing ness that we get into sometimes. I completely agree where you think, you know, half of the population or, you know, whatever group of people it might be, all of these people, how could they think that? How do they do it? I don't understand how. I guess you won't understand how and you won't understand how to change any minds if you genuinely just have no idea how they've come to this conclusion.
Speaker 2 [00:27:05] Hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:27:06] So if we go back to social media and we're talking about, you know, maybe not automatically. Completely cutting ourselves off from people who might think differently to us. How do we then? Experience, you know, online communities in a way that still does try and keep us safe and protect ourselves from, you know, actual active harm. And these, you know, because there are people who are more extreme, you know, I won't get into like more specifics, but how do you then navigate? Being online, not completely blocking yourself off from people, but also. Yeah, keeping yourself safe still. Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 [00:27:51] A really great point. And that was something I tried to figure out because on the one hand, you should be quite selective about who you follow online, I think. And on the other hand, I'm saying, oh, just like taking all these different ideas and all these different opinions and. I think what kind of what you're getting at is social media is kind of like a free for all, like even with an explore page or different things. Like you don't know what's going to come across your timeline. And it's also not vetted in the way that other things are. Like, you know, to publish an article or to write a book like that. There's going to be factual information in there. There's going to be some like meaty, valuable things. But in social media, if you're trying to get different ideas, you might just be stumbling across all these different, extreme, hateful opinions. And that's really not helpful. It's not fruitful in any way. So I think the way that I went about, you know, I said like I was going back and forth reading two different books to get this opinion, that opinion, let's take that take. And I thought that was really it worked really well because even the books that were hard for me to read, they were really factual and they were really informative versus social media can kind of be like drowning in opinions and just drowning in less concrete, less tangible things. So if someone really wants to seek out different opinions and seek out different ideas and seek out a thorough understanding of a different perspective, I wouldn't say social media has to be the place where they take in all of that learning. I'd say going to something like articles, books and the way I did it was people in my life who I had a really hard time understanding. I said, Tell me the best book to read and I'll read it. And that was like kind of a two birds with one stone because it's people I love to I just I was like, I have no idea what goes on in your mind and why you think the way you do. And so is two birds with one stone, because then it was like an olive branch, like, Hey, I'm trying to understand you. And so it helps me to engage in conversations with them. Better help me with those face to face relationships. And it also helped me engage with these ideas better because it gave me a book to read and and that was effective versus social media. If you're looking for the other side, different opinions, you might just end up with like the worst, most extreme versions of of their ideas. So. Yeah, yeah.
Gemma Styles [00:30:16] I'm curious to know. In terms of when you have taken these steps and started kind of actively trying to understand people more outside your own space, would you say that it has actually changed your opinion very much on these issues, or have you stayed in a similar position to the you were before, but you feel more able to understand people with different opinions.
Speaker 2 [00:30:43] Oh, I think honestly, a little bit of both. You know, I started out with like racial equity. That is my cause. And that hasn't changed. But seeking out these different ideas and the book that I will recommend later is the things that really changed. My opinion was I've always been passionate about racial equity, and I was learning from people in the racial equity space. But the biggest opinion of mine that changed was that I felt like all the voices in the racial equity, social justice space were telling me. That the way to protect my peace is to seek protection and to seek refuge and to get far away from the people who are threatening my peace. And from actually reading from psychologists and professors who are at the top of their field about how to what has been proven to be the best for people's peace of mind, what is proven to be really effective in terms of mental health. That's when I learnt about exposure therapy and I was like, oh my gosh. Like the advice that I've been taking in and the advice that I've been dishing out about stay far away from the things that make you uncomfortable if you don't like it. Like, like go the other way. Like. That's when I realised actually looking at the facts here and looking at the research here, the best thing for these people to do would be to lean into the conversations, lean into the discomfort. And you know, there's a lot of conversation around mental health, there's a lot of conversation around harm. And the biggest thing that changed for me was that. Like looking out for your mental health doesn't just look like avoiding the things, avoiding certain things. But like, the best thing for my mental health was I was seeking out these people. That was like a huge shift for me because I had been hearing this narrative that to approach the people who are causing you distress is the worst thing you can do. You got to look out for yourself. But then when I was hearing this information, it actually the way to overcome your fears and the way to to relieve yourself of these burdens is to face them head on and see that you're stronger than you thought, to see that you're capable of carrying your own in conversations, and to see that you can trust yourself in those situations. You don't need to leave the room. You can just speak up in the conversation. That was huge for me because that was very different than what I had thought previously. So. In a way, I'd say some of my bigger, more foundational beliefs and ideas hadn't been rocked. But what really rocked me was like I had this whole mega identity that was full of so many opinions and even to pull out like three and be like, okay, that one was wrong. That was wrong. That was wrong. Very, very humbling. And it really like the whole mega identity started to crumble and it started to become like, okay, I don't know, some things like I can be wrong about some things and I need to gather a lot and learn a lot and be really open to ideas rather than, you know, I think a lot of people have these mega identities where if you think A-B-C, that means you also think DFT, you know, and you can combine everything versus then it really lacks nuance and really lacks complexity. And then we all have totally identical opinions about everything. And yeah, that was kind of my my process with that.
Gemma Styles [00:34:15] Every week my guest and I will be answering your questions on the first one comes in from Tiara, who says there's a narrative that social media activism, quote unquote, is performative. How, in your opinion, can you use social media effectively for activism, even if you're not, say, the head of an organisation?
Speaker 2 [00:34:34] Oof, that is a great point and a great question I think. That that most like accusations of like it's all performative or something like that like they have a little bit of truth in them. Like I can see that. Like there have been times when I felt the need to chime in on every single issue and just. It's like trying to send out a Q of like, Hey, don't worry, I'm like you. Hey, don't worry. I think the same thing as you. And so, like, it can be sort of like a virtue signalling of like, hey, I just want everybody to know that I'm sitting in the right camp, okay? Back to business rather than a real, like, genuine effort for using your voice. So I think that there is some truth to the accusation that social media activism can just be performative. Mm hmm. And I think social media is it can be a really good place for learning. And like I said, you should be really selective about who you follow. But in terms of, like, you know, sharing things to your story or things like that, I think a lot has to do with intentions. Like if you're sharing things because you learn something from this, because this open your eyes and you want other people to see it. I think that's a really good thing. I know that in the past, in my younger years, I was really caught up in I'll share this to my story because they need to see it and they need to. And then I don't think that's helpful, you know, and I also don't think it's helpful to just share something to wave your little flag of like, oh, yeah, I'm part of the good team. Don't worry, guys, I'm one of the good guys. So yeah, I think it's an intention thing. And I've told people before, if you can't sort out like good pure intentions, don't do it. Just, just stay silent honestly, like and people go back and forth between like silence is terrible. Silence is what needs to happen. Just amplify their voices or don't be performative. And I can see people sharing and using social media as a place for activism and getting it right. I can see them getting it wrong that way. And I also think silence like and just sitting back and learning and that you can get that right or get that wrong too. So I think it comes down to intentions. I do.
Gemma Styles [00:36:47] I agree. I have to say, I think. Yeah, trying to be really honest with yourself about what your motivation is for sharing something like exactly as you said, if you have found it helpful and you've learnt something. I agree. I think even when you know, we talk a lot about whether, you know, whether it's performative or this idea of, you know, slacktivism and it's not real activism and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2 [00:37:10] Mm hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:37:11] And that's it's not wrong, but it also doesn't mean that it can't be useful. Right? In some scenarios, I guess so. Yeah, I agree with you. I think if you're if you're sharing something and you haven't even really digested it properly and you just. Yeah. All worried that people. I'm going to make assumptions about you if you don't say anything. Exactly as you said. But examining the motivation is probably the most useful thing you can do if you're worried that you are being performative.
Speaker 2 [00:37:42] Right.
Gemma Styles [00:37:42] So this question is from Gosia, who asks, how do you reach outside of your echo chamber with the way that Google and social media give us personalised content? So I guess this is kind of how do you overcome the algorithm?
Speaker 2 [00:37:57] Yeah, that's something I'm trying to figure out also. And yeah, I spoke to that a little bit in terms of the best books to read, like finding the best book on the other side. But even how I think a big issue is that so much of our worldview is just shaped online and it's so disconnected from our reality. Like so many of the thoughts we're thinking and the issues we're concerned with are so far away from what happens in our day to day. And so, yes, the algorithms are it's difficult. And I'd also say, like shifting your focus to your day to day experiences, your real life relationships, and like if your algorithms are feeding you all the same thing, I'm sure there's someone who you're close with in your life and you avoid conversations about any social issue. You avoid them to the best of your ability and maybe just kind of like, I don't know, open up that calm can of worms. Like if they're not a malicious person, if they're a well-meaning friend who you don't see the same as like, that's a way to kind of like break your algorithm by taking things in the real world and taking things local. I think that that's what really sealed the deal for me, and it helped me feel grounded and rooted because it was tangible.
Gemma Styles [00:39:20] That's great. So thank you. Last question is from Florida, who says sometimes when I'm very interested in a subject, I would go to incredible lengths mentally and emotionally to break out of my echo chamber and listen to another perspective. It's draining, and I do often find out how nuanced the conversation really is, but knowing that it's harder to be part of any other group because other people in that space who I'm already comfortable with aren't willing to break their echo chamber.
Speaker 2 [00:39:48] Hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:39:49] My arguments in favour of another viewpoint are often carelessly refuted and not taken into consideration. And I end up feeling embarrassed, suspected and ostracised.
Speaker 2 [00:39:59] Mm hmm.
Gemma Styles [00:39:59] Should I be exposing myself to a load of codswallop and search for a grain of truth and then be unable to return to what is the most like minded space?
Speaker 2 [00:40:09] Wow.
Gemma Styles [00:40:10] So I guess what she's trying to say it for me to boil down that little question is when she's tried to break out of the echo chambers and other people don't want to. She then feels like she can't go back to those original spaces. So is it worth it? I guess is the point there.
Speaker 2 [00:40:26] Wow. She is going above and beyond that. You're your average Joe. That is awesome. Wow. I really relate. I think that's a I feel similarly that's what I've been doing, you know, with my social media is, you know, you try to break out of the echo chamber and you come back. And the most useful thing to say to those people is whatever is not being said. But then if all you're sharing is the hot takes and the unpopular opinion, you really lose, you know, a sense of of community or a sense of that that agreement. We really cherish it. It feels like home feels really comfortable. And so I have to say, I think it is worth it. It's kind of my thing is that that it is really worth it to break out of echo chambers. But it is really difficult, especially in the people who are most committed to their views on social issues, the people who are most committed to that. But I really try to appeal to diversity of opinion, like on both sides. That's a value that that everybody holds diversity of opinion. Do you think it's important to be open to different ideas? Do you think it's important to be open to different ideas? And everybody's kind of on board with that? And so I tried to talk about guys, we're all on the same page that we value different ideas, different experiences, like, but we are not putting our money where our mouth is and we are not living that way. You know, we are not actually arm in arm with people who live, act and think differently than us. And there's only one way to go about that. And what she said about it's really draining like, yeah, that's why I try to stay focussed. I don't try to dig deep on every single issue ever. I really do try to concentrate my efforts and concentrate my like expertise on just a few key things and, and trust that other people are doing that with other issues. But I relate to the exhaustion of it. I think what she's getting at is the the issue is the fact that we're all so accustomed to agreement that disagreement really rubs us the wrong way. Like even still, when someone when someone, like, says anything, like, I think that was a bad point or anything. Like, it makes my heart beat. Like, Oh, my gosh, do they think I'm a bad person? Do they think I'm terrible? And then that's when I have to like, you know, live out what I say I value, which is like, oh, actually this is an opportunity for growth. This is an opportunity for understanding. And so I think it is worth it breaking out of the echo chambers because breaking out of your echo chamber is the only way to further your cause and to find that common ground with other people, kind of like what we talked about a little bit earlier. But I think it's also the only way to like strengthen yourself and to show yourself I'm capable. I can handle myself. I can I can learn new things and I can really gain so much knowledge and be valuable, different in different ways. And so I think it's the best thing for others and for yourself. That's what I found. So I'd encourage you to keep at it, but that's just my take.
Gemma Styles [00:43:39] Yeah, I think that's good. Yeah. I mean keep, keep doing it like. Yeah, if you especially if you're finding value from it, it's what you are saying. It made me think of. So Emily Clarkson, who was actually on the podcast last week, I saw a post from her on Instagram or maybe on a story this week where she was talking about and because people have been sharing a lot of information about Roe v Wade being overturned and what that means, and she was having this discussion on stories because she said that she had a lot of messages from people who were saying things like, I agree with you, 99%, but I don't agree with that. You know, that specific sentence or that one word or that smaller point and was kind of talking about. How much we're arguing amongst ourselves when there's like the most mind Newt amount of disagreement. Rather than doing what we're talking about here and kind of looking to see where. The big disagreements are and why the bigger arguments are that we actually need to be able to. Either disputes or just, you know, debate effectively with other people. But we're sort of I think what she said was, you know, we're tying our own shoelaces together by arguing with each other and just making ourselves less effective.
Speaker 2 [00:45:02] Yeah. And I think that there I mean, something I've really been thinking about is like in terms of activism, a lot of times we can almost be competitive in our desire to be smarter, more, right? Like have the perfect ideas, have the have the newest, most novel like opinion on this. And like you said, it actually makes us less effective. It's like this competitive spirit of desiring to, like, be smart and have the right answers for making change rather than actually having a desire to make change and help people. And so we can get really caught up in semantics. We can get really caught up in tearing each other down. Actually, if you make this tweak, that's actually really crucial. And I mean, there is definitely value of that constructive criticism. I think when you have a platform online, constructive criticism, times thousands doesn't feel as constructive anymore. But what you're getting at, like the the big picture idea is that if we could just be a little bit less critical of all these different things and trying to have the exact right idea and. Just the perfection aspect and instead focus our time, energy and attention on the really like just the basics, the helping people that why we're doing this, what we're about. I think we'd be much, much more effective at whatever causes it applies to a lot of different things.
Gemma Styles [00:46:28] If you want to know about opportunities to setting questions that upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at good influence us. Or you can email the podcast at Good Influence Pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommend does something to read, something to listen to and something to watch?
Speaker 2 [00:46:54] Yes. So all of these are a little bit U.S., but that's because that's where I'm coming from. U.S. focussed but or from Americans. But there's something to read is called The Coddling of the American Mind. I've spoken about it on my page. It was the first book that frustrated me beyond belief and then made some really good points and then made me so mad and then helps me to understand things better. And that whole book is written by these social psychologists who are examining the social trend of millennials, believing that they need to be protected from different ideas and protected, that all discomfort is harmful. And what they're arguing is that their research, as well as the research of a lot of people, shows that you need to get out there and and strengthen yourself through experience, through hardship, and that, you know, the things that challenge you are good and should be leaned into rather than dangerous and and escape. So that's my something to read. But if, if you want to rip out a few pages, don't buy me something to listen to. I feel like this was a little bit of a I might have cheated a little bit because it's an audiobook which is still kind of like something to read, but I listened to it.
Gemma Styles [00:48:19] Is it's your prerogative. You go right.
Speaker 2 [00:48:21] Ahead. And so my something to listen to is why we were divided by Ezra Klein, I believe. He's one of the co-founders of Vox, which is a really popular think journalism thing. And why we're divided is he's examining this idea that polarisation is exactly how the system was designed to work. You know, he's he's kind of unpacking the question of like, how did we get so polarised? And he's saying, well, what if that's exactly what benefits different people? And so they're kind of polarising us. They're playing the string strings and, you know, we're going along with it. And so he's again, I wasn't like gung ho about every single thing he said, but I thought it was really interesting to get a peek inside, you know, how I'm being played and how I am, you know, kind of being manipulated. He talks a lot about like common enemy politics and how having this common enemy can actually, like, weaken your political party because you're less critical of amongst yourselves. And it just had a lot of interesting stuff. So that's my something to listen to.
Gemma Styles [00:49:29] It sounds really interesting.
Speaker 2 [00:49:30] Yeah. Yeah, it was. It really was. I am. I thoroughly enjoyed it and I was recapping it to all my friends. Like guys. You would not believe it. This guy said, I am. I am just wrapping my brain around it and then my something to watch again. I'm trying to throw out there things that were you really have to chew on it. But there's a TED Talk by Jonathan Haidt called the moral roots of Liberals and Conservatives. And he talks through how liberals and conservatives have different moral values, like at their core. You know, one of the core values for liberals is change and reform and progress. And a core value for conservatives is stability and security. And he kind of talks about how in order to have a thriving, flourishing society like all throughout history, we need both. And so that was really interesting, too. And that's just like a 20 minute TED talk that I personally enjoyed.
Gemma Styles [00:50:30] Thank you for listening and thank you, Marie, for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, I'd love if you subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using and if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating and a review as well. Your views make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week.